KQo from UTG [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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adamstewart

01-12-2005, 05:35 PM

No hints on this one... what do you think?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO (poster) calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Vern

01-12-2005, 05:40 PM

w/o any apparent draws on the board, I think I check/raise this flop. If there were more apparent draws where I think TP2K would be more vulnerable I would lead out hoping to the three-bet by the original pre-flop raiser.

WillMagic

01-12-2005, 05:44 PM

Your postflop line is excellent. I'd personally raise preflop, but I know there are good arguments for calling as well...so I don't feel like getting into a big debate about it.

Will

PokerBob

01-12-2005, 05:45 PM

I raise this PF every time. It gives you info. Now that you limped, you aren't sure what you are up against. Assuming the pf raiser isn't a moron, you may be in real trouble.

The flop 3-bet may be too aggressive. It slowed the pf raiser down, but why? Does he have AQ, but fears a set from you cuz you just limped pf? Does he have JJ?

I don't think your line here is bad, but he clearly isn't going away. I think you are beat by AQ.

Raise pf.

WillMagic

01-12-2005, 05:52 PM

I disagree with you here. With the pot at 10sbs, there are plenty of weak draws on the board that would be able to call one bet but not two. If you lead out and the pfr raises, you have a very good situation, as you've now protected your hand against all the gutshots/middle pairs.

Will

adamstewart

01-12-2005, 05:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
w/o any apparent draws on the board, I think I check/raise this flop. If there were more apparent draws where I think TP2K would be more vulnerable I would lead out hoping to the three-bet by the original pre-flop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I led out on the flop for two reasons:

(1) Kinda hoping Preflop Raiser would raise, in order to "protect my hand," and cut down the field. After all, we don't want someone with middle or bottom pair to have the odds to draw to two pair or a set.

(2) To see Preflop Raiser's reaction.

Is this wrong?

Adam

Vern

01-12-2005, 06:05 PM

It is always possible I am wrong, but I think with top pair, 2nd kicker that also beats the board on what appears to be a draw barren board I want to build up the pot. My top pair is a strong hand on this board. By check/raising, you also get a better chance to gauge the original bettor's hand.
Assume you check, he bets and one player called instead of folded. You now check raise. If he three-bets, you are likely behind on such a draw barren board, there is extra money in the pot and the players on the flop are faced closing their action calling two with the risk of a cap instead of calling one after calling two. If the original pre-flop raiser just calls the flop c/r, then you can continue to lead as you are likely ahead.

In your hand are you ahead or being called down by AQ or a weakly played AA-KK who fears a set or two pair.

Edited because English is my second language, binary being my first.

Xiphoid

01-12-2005, 06:07 PM

Raise pre-flop, you don't want as many callers and often when you hit top pair on the flop, you can take it down.

The rest looks fine.

adamstewart

01-12-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think with top pair, 2nd kicker that also beats the board on what appears to be a draw barren board I want to build up the pot. My top pair is a strong hand on this board. By check/raising, you also get a better chance to gauge the original bettor's hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I thought you were getting at.

To be honest, I never thought about your reasoning until your first response.

I think this something to really think about.

On a "drawless" board... I may want to build a pot... and if I'm behind, I may get extra callers to buffer the pot (dead money).

However, protecting the hand against draws for 2 pair, a set, or a gutshot has it's merits too!

I wonder which is correct?

Adam

MercTec

01-12-2005, 06:23 PM

If you think you are ahead on this flop, instead of 3 betting, what if you call the raiser and then check-raise the turn if a blank falls. That way you thin the field and build a big pot at the same time. Getting 3-bet on the turn would suck, but it's a thought.

Was your 3 bet on the flop for information or for value in your opinion?

Chuckles1248

01-12-2005, 06:33 PM

Check-raising the turn won't thin the field any more than check-raising the flop, because the likely bettor is immediately to the hero's left. Check-raising just makes everyone in the hand call 1 and then another 1, which they are more likely to do than to call 2 cold.

MercTec

01-12-2005, 06:55 PM

By betting the flop and being raised, it ended up being heads up on the turn. So I'm questioning whether the 3 bet was for value or for information. If it was for value, I suggested calling the flop raise and check raise your single opponent on the turn for value.

adamstewart

01-12-2005, 10:34 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO (poster) calls, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP1 folds, CO folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (10 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qh Ks (one pair, queens).
UTG+1 has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 12 BB.