AKs - Why do I feel so lost heads up?

[meep_42]

Sometimes, I feel like I have the other guy right where I want him, even with a Ten-high... and sometimes, when I have a good hand I feel like every move is wrong...

AKs is my biggest losing hand (-1.83BB/h, 25 occurrances at 1/2)

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, CO calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

I bet the flop because i've found you can either buy the pot outright here or set up a turn buy with it. No flop bet and you won't get him to fold, ever, even with nothing.

I bet the turn as a semi-bluff, hoping he'd fold TT/AQ/AK. Check/fold or check/call the river?

In retrospect, there weren't any busted draws (which I gain nothing from betting into anyway), there weren't any PPs folding here, after calling a flop and turn bet, at best I can get a bet out of AQ or get AK to fold here, both of which are of dubious value.

So, do I check/call with my AK-high? Or let this one go on the river?

-d

[charlie_t_jr]

I think since you were called on the river, you're most likely beat(if he's a reasonable player). Unless your opponent knows you'd bet an unimproved AK, he would call with his AK.

I'd check/call.

[K C]

A lot of people overplay AK, so you're not alone to be sure. This is a good example of how to overplay it though. Keep in mind that you don't have anything really until you hit something.

Let's look at the hand. Do you really want to cap this PF? What kind of hands would your opponent 3-bet with? Chances are you may be up against a real hand here.

Out of the gate, in a lot of cases it's the right move to follow up your PF raise with leading at the pot. Generally, this is not the case though when you're leading into a PF raiser. He's not going to get scared off and thus bite on your bluff so easy.

Since he did call you though on the flop, unless he's a calling station, you're probably beat. Check the turn and fold the puppy if he bets. Your AK looks pretty but it's only good if you can hit it, and you have to get rid of it when you're behind with it.

You keep betting on the river, and he keeps calling you. Remember, with each miss, your hand gets weaker. At this point a random hand would beat you.

AK needs to be one of your top money making hands. Ease up on playing it and you will find that this will turn around.

KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

[RichHarden]

This is a tough situation. You're almost always correct to bet any flop with unimproved AK, this is certainly no exception.

The turn brings you a 4 flush, so combined with your overcards, a turn semi-bluff is definitely in order. Since CO calls the turn, I put him on a pocket pair. When you don't improve on the river, I check/fold since if he got that far, he's likely to call another bet and show you the winner.

Letting go of unimproved overcards can be tough, but it is something you need to learn to do if you wish to improve your game. People call too often in these limits to warrent the browbeat strategy.

[meep_42]

You really fold this turn with the nut flush draw and 2 overcards?

-d

[DeathDonkey]

This is where a read means everything. I would definitely check the river. Against some opponents I would call, against others I would fold. Default would be fold.

For fun, against the right opponent, I would have checkraised the turn and led the river, that might get a pair to fold.

-DeathDonkey

[PokerFink]

[ QUOTE ]
For fun, against the right opponent, I would have checkraised the turn and led the river, that might get a pair to fold.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

My favorite way to play an unimproved AK vs any player that can actually lay down pocket pairs in a limit game. Especially with the draw, this is a good move.

As for your play, I woulden't cap it out of position to begin with, and probably check/call the flop. This sets up a potential check-raise on the turn if you either hit or make a four flush to semi-bluff. This would look less like an unimproved AK and more like a set or something of that nature.

[charlie_t_jr]

[ QUOTE ]
This is where a read means everything. I would definitely check the river. Against some opponents I would call, against others I would fold. Default would be fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

A read would help, but this hand played HU, and the opponent has done nothing but react to the betting. A check on the river invites a bluff, the pot is laying nearly 9-1...I think the default would be to call, no?

[cold_cash]

I think you played this fine up until the river, (which may have been fine also, I don't know).

What to do there depends greatly on your opponent. Against some you should check and fold. Against others you should check and call. Against others you should bet...

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played this fine up until the river, (which may have been fine also, I don't know).

What to do there depends greatly on your opponent. Against some you should check and fold. Against others you should check and call. Against others you should bet...

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't imagine hardly any opponents it be worthwhile to bet against. I think the % of opponents who call this bet with a hand Hero beats is very very small.

[cold_cash]

They're rare, but I've seen a few.

The last time I played in the casino a guy came and sat down and was in every pot until the river. He had no clue what he was doing. He would just call until the hand was over, flip over his cards, and look at the dealer to see if he won.

Against him, I would bet.

[Shillx]

Check/raising the turn is almost certainly the correct play.

Brad

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is where a read means everything. I would definitely check the river. Against some opponents I would call, against others I would fold. Default would be fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

A read would help, but this hand played HU, and the opponent has done nothing but react to the betting. A check on the river invites a bluff, the pot is laying nearly 9-1...I think the default would be to call, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. These are tough hands to play but I think you have to bet/fold to raise here. Since I'm probably going to call the river, I want to give another AK a chance to fold.

[meep_42]

This is what appears to me upon further analysis. I think I was just so blinded by me WILLING him to fold, and trying to WILL a diamond river, that it didn't occur to me at the time.

I really need to just concentrate for 10s on every decision I make heads up, I think.

(PS - I suck at poker)

-d

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/raising the turn is almost certainly the correct play.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you explain why?

[frank_iii]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/raising the turn is almost certainly the correct play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, interesting idea. But I don't know if even that will get a calling station (if he is one) to fold TT through AA on this board. Plus, you almost have to follow that up with a bet on the river unless you were planning to check/fold. Why do you think a turn c/r would be effective here?

Man, heads up is tough...

[Shillx]

Yo meep,

You leave yourself with more flexability post-flop if you just call preflop. Once you cap preflop you pretty much have to bet the flop becuase a check/call gives your hand away (unless you get real tricky and also check/call AA here). When you pick up the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif draw I really like going for a turn check/raise. If he has AQ and it gets checked through, well he only has 2 outs and might be more inclined to call a river bet. If he checks though with a better hand (like TT) then you buy yourself a free card. If he decides to bet AK or TT, he might fold to the check/raise and at worse he is calling down with QQ or KK (which you have a good chance of outdrawing).

Without the diamond draw my line goes, bet-bet/fold to a raise-check/fold to a bet.

Brad

I forgot to add that typical players will go crazy on this flop with KK or AA. When he just calls, it becomes aparent in my mind that he has a weaker hand, and might dump it to the check/raise and river bet.

[frank_iii]

I like this. Thanks. I think I'll take this line the next time.

[DeathDonkey]

So to be clear (mostly for the original poster who I am responding to here), you would by default check and fold the river with unimproved AK heads up here, not check and call. I would do the same. My reasoning is my typical opponent is too passive and too stubborn with crappy pocket pairs etc. They almost never bluff the river when they think they have something to showdown with (like any Ace high) and they will often check a pair. A bet means your sunk unless you have a good reason to suspect a bluffer.

-DeathDonkey

[Shillx]

Yeah, betting AK on the river is almost never the correct play because better hands will call and worse hands will fold. The only time to consider it is when you think that someone else has AK (but they will usually call with it because it is such a good bluff catcher).

AK is a great bluff catcher. It is not a good hand to bet for value on the river. Likewise it is not a good hand to bluff with because any pair will almost always call after they have called to the river.

Brad

It would be nice to hear an opinion (on the turn play) from someone who is much better at playing HU situations...

Results?

[meep_42]

I don't follow your river play after the turn c/r --

Same turn:
Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero raises, Villain calls.

Same River:
Check/fold? -- If villain calls the c/r, he's not going to fold the river for 1 bet. Do you really think this line gets a better hand to fold enough to warrant the extra BB in?

I'll note that PF - out of position, heads up, Big Aces aren't enough to cap, leave that to pairs?

-d

[frank_iii]

Actually, now after even more thought I don't know if I like the line...even if you check-raise the turn, he has decent odds to call with AK. So, the only hope is that he'll fold TT (no way he's folding JJ-AA) or AQ (which you beat anyway). Now, if you miss the river, you're planning on folding to a bet, right? Hmmm...

I'm confused at this point but I don't like to fold AK on the river to an opponent who hasn't shown any aggression outside of possible bluff attempts. May be a leak, but heads up still doesn't come naturally for me.

[Shillx]

The general rule about semi-bluff check/raising is that you have to follow through on the next street. So yes bet the river after you c/r the turn.

But if the villian is the player that will not fold to the semi-bluff, then you shouldn't make it. It just appears to me that the villian has a weak hand here and will lay it down a good % of the time.

Brad

The reason I said that check/raising was the correct play is because you said that you bet the turn as a semi-bluff. This implies that he will fold some of the time. He will fold more often to a check/raise then a bet.

If the villian will not fold, then you should check/call once you pick up the /images/graemlins/diamond.gif draw. Betting the turn really serves no purpose in this spot.

[DeathDonkey]

The problem with being an expert at HU situations is that its almost all player dependent. For instance I rock playing shorthanded at B&amp;M but I tend to not bother with it online as I don't think my advantage is as big. Of course those Party 1/2 6 max games are my new home and a lovely home it is.

-DeathDonkey

[GrunchCan]

Not that I'm all that good at HU as you have called for, but I agree with your line completely; it's mine as well, including the PF smooth-call.

I approach the river bluff in this way. Your opponent has 3-bet PF and came along for the whole ride. There is a very high probability that he has some kind of hand, eg he's not on a complete lark. If the opponent has any hand (4:1?) he is completely stuck to it, and no river bet will push him off of it. Therefore, the fold equity you get from a river bluff is very low. I'd say there's perhaps a 5% chance that your bluff will suceed, considering the possibility that he has a legitimate hand and the chance that he thinks you are bluffing, and will look you up. At a 1:19 chance of success, the pot's too small to bluff at in this spot. That's where I'm coming from.