Correct bluff attempt?

[boondockst]

Probably shouldn't call the small preflop raise here but......



Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP ($17.90)
CO ($5.95)
Hero ($3.50)
SB ($2.01)
BB ($12.38)
UTG ($18.27)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $0.35</font>, MP folds, CO folds, Hero calls $0.35, SB folds, BB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($1.10) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks.

Turn: ($1.10) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets $1.1</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls $1.10.

River: ($3.30) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2.05 (All-In)</font>, .......


Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
BB folds.
UTG opts to show Ac Qd (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $5.35. </font>

Is it correct for me to bluff here?

[DBowling]

first of all, rebuy to the max
second, dont call that preflop
third, dont call that turn
finally, no, that isnt a good spot to bluff because the board is paired. you are also so shortstacked, that you are probably getting called by any ace, definatly a full house.

if the stacks were deeper, and the board wasnt paired, this would be a good bluffing opportunity. however, there is no way you should have made it to the river.

[boondockst]

Please reread the title

I guess i should have rephrased my question:

assuming i make it to the river...

Does his check show great fear of the heart and should i capitalize?

And i'm not comfortable bringing the max to the table due to all the suckouts....the tables pay crazy and i don't like to have too much in play...i'm sure it's horrid philosophy but it's mine

[DBowling]

[ QUOTE ]
finally, no, that isnt a good spot to bluff because the board is paired. you are also so shortstacked, that you are probably getting called by any ace, definatly a full house.

if the stacks were deeper, and the board wasnt paired, this would be a good bluffing opportunity

[/ QUOTE ]

Check call is a good line for him to take because you will fold any hand that he beats if he bets it, but if he checks, you may attempt to bluff. Given the stack sizes, there is no way villian folds his hand. He also doesnt fold a straight. And he certainly doesnt fold a heart.
Nope, i dont like it.


edit:id also like to add, given the limits you are playing, dont waste too much time bluffing. even if stacks were deeper, your opponents here are probably calling stations. dont bluff calling stations.

[TheWorstPlayer]

No offense, but I think you have bigger problems than correct bluff execution if you follow a philosophy that you admit is horrible and you call preflop raises that you know you shouldn't call. I would add calling the turn bet, but since you haven't personally acknowledged that as a mistake, I'll just stick with the ones you yourself say are bad.

[boondockst]

You think i don't know those plays are wrong? I try to mix it up after i get sucked out on flops i'm 86% on....the "gotta get lucky to win" mantra rubs off on me...is that horrid? yes. Why can't you guys simply answer the question i asked? What do you get from berating players on plays they admit were stupid?

[boondockst]

If you wanna talk general play problems, we can. I don't know why I can't consistently win...I try playing "textbook" and "getting reads" and the lucky super-aggressive players suck out on me almost as much as smart, thoughtful play works...I can't find the pattern to when i win compared to when i lose. I don't know if it's the time of day or if these tables are just plagued by crazy players. Again, yes my play was crazy there, so i became one of them. And he did indeed fold his cards.

[DBowling]

please, read my post. i did answer your question. he isnt berating you, but if you would like to be a better poker player, id hope you take our advice on the other aspects of the hand. there are many ways you can increase your profit. Making better preflop decisions is part of this. I also believe buying in for the max is part of this. Making good postflop decisions (as well as recognizing correct bluffing situations) is also part of this.

We only want to help.

Honest.

[TheWorstPlayer]

OK, I agree with the above poster that it is a bad spot for a bluff since you are going to be facing a full house here fairly often with all that paint on the board. But I thought it was worth mentioning that a much bigger detriment to your win rate is exhibited in this hand than bluffing in a sub-optimal spot. Sorry if I offended you but it just seems ridiculous to do these things that you know, and openly admit, are wrong.

[boondockst]

You've never been pissed and went on a mini-tilt, exhibited not by wild plays, but by calling a 0.35 raise preflop?

yes i need to eliminate that from my game, but if you check my PT stats, i don't PF raise crazy, i don't VP$IP any ace...not that that makes me a great player, but i'm not the player that doesn't follow the basic rules you folks at 2+2 preach

[TheWorstPlayer]

Sure. I've also lost $1K in a weekend playing three whole days of tilt. I am trying to spare you the same.

[boondockst]

I just keep thinking about cashing out my UB account while i'm still ahead...it's only been a week here and i'm still up but I can't win consistently for the last couple days and it's just too frustrating trying to "get even" with what i've been sucked out for all the time...

I'm sure you'll say any player who questions if they should keep playing should stop but....I duno...as we speak i fold a 5 10o and the board comes A 5 5 and wild betting ensues as players try to raise with A2o and reraise with A3 soooooooooooted....and i shake my head, not that i should have thrown my dime in and caught all that action, but that lately i can't get action on my good flops (even checking, check-raising, min-raising, all of the tricks you guys talk of, even "play it straightforward at that level, no one pays attention"), get sucked out on the turns and rivers....just can't seem to beat these lucky players...

how bad is it?

1.2K hands at this level and i'm up a lousy 10 BB/100...($12)

again, as we speak i fold a 6d 10d that i considered throwing my dime in (button) but didn't and the flop comes 6 10 J rainbow...

I'm not trying to debate the volumes of books and pros' winnings that say to only play good starting hands but how do you get over the frustration and mediocre winnings at these low levels? I've played 19 HOURS AT THIS LEVEL to win 12 bucks? I've gained poker "experience" and taken my beats and been punished for my bad decisions but still.

Finally won a hand against a guy chasing a one card flush on the flop, i hit my 2p, and he paired his other card on the river...but i can't seem to keep doing this consistently....

Any suggestions? Just play through it and good play will prevail?

[boondockst]

Example:

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $.10 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO ($14.33)
Button ($8.90)
Hero ($6.20)
BB ($11.57)
UTG ($19.21)
UTG+1 ($2.10)
MP1 ($2.27)
MP2 ($5.30)
MP3 ($3.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls $0.10, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.50) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks.

Turn: ($0.50) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $0.55</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: $1.05

No showdown. Hero wins $1.05.

Sure i shouldn't have completed the SB maybe but i am very lucky with spades and would never call a reraise for just this reason so leave that alone /images/graemlins/smile.gif and yes i could have been in kicker trouble with my 7....

how come no one could have had an 8 or a heart draw or A2 sooooted that they thought would take the hand? It's like i have some tag on me that says "dont call his bets" sometimes...

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
Just play through it and good play will prevail?

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. And also, multi-table as soon as you are physically capable of doing it. Playing one table of TAG full ring SSNL gets very boring very quickly. Also, if the beats are killing you, take a break.

I'll tell a little story to cheer you up. I have played UB from the day I started, but I decided that I had heard too much about the fish on Party and I had a friend with a good deal to get me bonus on Party so I deposited my 50 bucks plus 50 bonus bucks and threw my hat in the ring. A few bad beats and a few suckouts and I was down 50 bucks. So I was like, "to hell with this, Party sucks" and I stopped playing it. Went back to UB. Then I decided that I was a moron and I should just play ABC poker and it will work out on Party, so I went back. Another few suckouts and a few bad beats later and I was completely out of cash. Dropped 100 bucks straight, never had a winning session on a Party table. So I quit. Stopped playing at Party. Made me feel better to go back home to UB. If you have mental issues with UB, just go somewhere else to play. Or take a break from poker in general. Definitely don't sit at the table making bad preflop decisions because you see everyone else doing it and sucking out. Best of luck!

Edit: Also add me to your buddy list. My draws never hit.

[TheWorstPlayer]

For what it's worth, I think you played that hand well from start to finish. I would definitely complete with K7s. And I like the check on the flop because people love to take stabs at paired board from late position and if you have kicker problems they aren't likely to get any worse on the turn so there is no harm in checking. It stinks when you get a hand and no one else has anything, but just be happy you took the pot. Would you rather someone had 66?

[boondockst]

Funny you mention that...I had tremendous success multitabling UB's 0.01/0.02 at first but switched up to the 0.05/0.10 and found that multitabling just made my bad beats come faster (i know it's not the truth, just the way it seemed...)

What are your goals with multitabling? I too easily look at it as being at least up a little after an hour or so and feel horrible if i'm down...when you multitable 3, is busting one out a big deal?

[boondockst]

[ QUOTE ]
For what it's worth, I think you played that hand well from start to finish. I would definitely complete with K7s. And I like the check on the flop because people love to take stabs at paired board from late position and if you have kicker problems they aren't likely to get any worse on the turn so there is no harm in checking. It stinks when you get a hand and no one else has anything, but just be happy you took the pot. Would you rather someone had 66?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can believe that, i had your thoughts exactly the whole way down, heck even UTG i couldn't check the turn again could i? let a heart hit the river if it checks around...

[boondockst]

what's your UB name? TheWorstPlayer doesn't seem to be it...

[TheWorstPlayer]

No you can't check the turn, and no you can't have my UB name. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Maybe if you PM me . . .

[boondockst]

wow...

was just sighing again at folding my 8h6h preflop when the board came J 8 8.....but reaffirming that i can't play that hand long run....

then took a bigger sigh when a seemingly harmless river queen came for a guy with Q8...

[DBowling]

The cool thing about multitabling is your never have enough time to pay attention to the board if youre not involved in the hand. Then these thoughts dont get in your head about playing bad hands. How bout you playing one table of .05/.10 and one, two, or three tables of .01/.02. It will keep you busy and youll get more used to multitabling. Once you feel more comfortable you can start playing more .05/.10

[boondockst]

Not to sound cocky i feel i can definitely 3-table with ease at that level, at least no worse than i do one-tabling LoL...

some comments on how busting out 1 of 3 (UB's max) tables makes you feel or being down 20% overall when 3-tabling after an hour, etc would be greatly appreciated...I realize it'd be rare to be doubled up on all 3 tables but i'd like to have some goals...(gonna try it now btw)

[DBowling]

I dont get frustrated with busting out, or even when im down after an hour. Dont try to rush these things. Its important that you can have the bankroll not to worry about busting out on all three tables.

I currently 6 table on party poker. Whenever i get below the maximum, i rebuy to the maximum. If i bust on one table, i immediatly rebuy. Its taken me a while, but i no longer check my progress to see if i am ahead or behind until the end of my session (several hours later).
I try to remove all of the self defeating aspects of poker to play my best (ie not getting bored, not playing with scared money, not worrying about being ahead or not).

They say the long run is really long, they're right. But if youre playing good poker, in the end you will make money, just try to forgot about the short term as much as possible.

[TheWorstPlayer]

The only goal I set for myself is to lose my stack at least once per session. That way I stay aggressive and I don't get mad when I get sucked out on because at least I have accomplished a goal. But I don't consider the goal accomplished if I was behind when the money went in.

[AncientPC]

1) Rebuy to max.

2) Fold pre-flop.

3) Fold turn.

4) Horrible bluff.

Oh wait, I just reiterated everything DBowling said.

10 BB/100 is a good long term number. You need to stop becoming results oriented and rabbit hunting.

Regarding your K7s hand, what hands are you expecting to call you? Obviously no one had another K, straight draw, or flush draw so they folded.

FWIW I dropped 6 buy-ins the first time I played at UB, cashed out and haven't been back since but I do just fine at all other sites. I just don't like the NL tables there.

[pho75]

I feel your pain. I have been where you are and have finally evolved past those frustrations and now have a whole different set of new ones. Here is my advice to get you past where you are and on to the next level.

First and foremost, 1.2K hands are statistically meaningless. It really is nothing. It seems to take about 10K hands to even out the luck induced swings and let the true YOU show through.

Second, assuming you had played 10K hands and your win rate was 10BB/100. Well, you are not only a WINNING player you're a better-than-average winner. That's a very respectable win rate by any standard.

It doesn't seem like that to you because you see all those loose players hitting their 4 outers and doubling or tripling up all the time. But here's the thing. What you DON'T see are the 10 other sessions they have played and lost everything. Those players are long term losers, ALL OF THEM. Don't envy them, pity them. Prey on them. Those are the players who will call your big bets trying to hit their draws and miss, and then try to bluff you when you have the nuts. The problem is that you have to play many many hands in order for their suck-outs to be offset by your wins.

Third, the last thing you want to do is to get involved in a pot with weak starting hands. Not because you'll be wasting a bet when the flop doesn't help you (which will be most of the time). The danger comes when the flop HELPS you. This is where most of your money will be lost, not suck-outs.

Say you limp in with T8s (hearts) along with 7 other players. The flop comes Ah 2h 5h. Someone bets big, you and 3 others call. The turn comes 2s. Another big bet and then all-in, all-in, all-in, now what are you going to do? There is a good chance you will throw all of your chips in. The river is 3h and everyone shows.

You Jh 8h loose
#1 Kh 9s loose
#2 Ad 4d loose
#3 5c 5d win
#4 Qh 6h loose

And you'll think DAMN! I finally get a great hand and those idiots beat me again.

If you play weak starting hands and hit the flop you will be tempted to put more money in and play on without truly understanding where you are. Only good players can do that. Your goal (and mine) is to keep it simple while you get some mileage under your belt playing good tight ABC poker.

And lastly, if you can't buy in for the maximum because you are afraid to loose it then you MUST play at a lower level.

These are some of the things I've learned in the last 4 months playing in the $0.01/$0.02 NL games at UB. I have played tens of thousands of hands there. I have finally managed to figure out that game and win consistently. When I've made $300 I'll move up to the BIG (ha!) game. The one you are playing now.

One last thing. After you've folded your crappy starting hands, spend your time on the sideline trying to figure out what the other players are holding. Make it a game. That way you won't have time to think about what you MIGHT have had if you stayed in.

I hope that helps a little.

[amoeba]

rabbit hunting, does that come from the chinese proverb?

[wbrumfiel]

UB has been terrible to me lately. Bought in for $200 to get the $100 bonus last month and cleared it and cashed out the $300 and left $88 in the account. Built that up to over $300 and then in probably 3 hours Im down to $12. People calling draws for $20+ on the $25/NL tables without even having the nut flush draw. UB just seems to be a garden of rocks mixed in with the luckiest fish in the ocean. Its hard to beat a rock, its tougher to beat a lucky fish.