Playing in big multiway pots. (low content)

[Peter_rus]

What changes would you make in my play if you hold these hands?

Both hands against typical 15/30 mixture of LP's, LAG's and TAGs who also don't pay much credits to my PF raises.

Hand 1.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Peter_rus is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus raises</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus caps</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (21 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (13 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Peter_rus calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, Peter_rus calls, CO calls, Button calls.

River: (25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus bets</font>, CO folds, Button calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 28 BB


Hand 2.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Peter_rus is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds, Peter_rus calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (16.66 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Peter_rus checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (13.33 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
Peter_rus checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus raises</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

River: (21.33 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus bets</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 24.33 BB

[imported_stealthcow]

both look good to me.

in hand 1, i feel like its 50/50 cap turn smooth call and am very curious what otehr players say. will players often fold for 2 more, when they have 2 invested on a turn in a hand that involved a cap preflop and 2 bets on teh flop?

2. any advice on how you're able to play KTs utg+1 for profit?

[pindawg]

[ QUOTE ]

2. any advice on how you're able to play KTs utg+1 for profit?

[/ QUOTE ]

Isolate then hit the 2nd nuts /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[cpk]

I think in the first hand it's a push between capping the turn and going for overcalls. Plus, you may get bet into again, allowing you to raise. As it happened, it didn't work out that way.

Second hand is perfect.

[cpk]

When all these people will call 2 and 3 cold, it seems quite easy to show a profit with KTs from any position. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[TStoneMBD]

can someone further elaborate how raising KTs UTG2 in certain games is more profitable than limping?

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
Second hand is perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually im curios about your opinions about turn c/r. I have 9 outs non-nut flush and 6 outs to straight some of them are quite likely dead due to action. Maybe 2 but quite likely 1 (ace which has CO i guess). So i extremely need them all to call my c/r for it to be profitable.

[TStoneMBD]

when i first saw hand #2 i thought the turn checkraise was solid, but the more i think about it the less i like it. you king outs may very well be good in this pot, so that adds value to the hand. however, its very possible that you will be 3bet by MP which will kill your pot odds as it drops the other players, while forcing you to pay an extra bet. you also have no way of knowing what the action will look like after you check. i think leading the turn here is the better play.

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
i think leading the turn here is the better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right here. Though it too can get into troubles as someone with QJ or hidden flopped set could raise me putting on good Q. Though, even flopped low set able to shut up and call when i c/r the field of 3 opponents with Q and J on a board i think...

[DeeJ]

Hand 1 I presume at the turn you were going for overcalls and a someone-else-cap-please chance? I like it.

Hand 2 also I fold this preflop, but if I knew I was at a table which was seeing 4 or 5 to the flop every time I would be in here. Probably with a limp, which is probably a leak /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DeeJ]

Don't get the last part. The c/r looks good because you are getting 16.33:2 over 8-1 and likely 9 or 10:1 for your outs, which may be anywhere from 15 to very few. Even if you put your effective outs at 7 or 8, you're looking sweet at 9:1 . Did I miss something?

[Lawrence Ng]

5 way is considered big multiway? I consider that tight.

Lawrence

[AviD]

Hand 1: Why not cap the turn here? Anyone on the flush draw is calling 2 more there in that pot, and those are bets you aren't going to get on the river when they miss.

Hand 2: Postflop looks perfect, preflop is the only question regarding raising KTs UTG+1 with TAGs behind you. Really a hand you want to go to battle with possibly shorthanded? But if they are behind you (close, next 2-3 positions), I'd imagine raising is better than calling as they are sure to isolation raise you figuring you are limping with a weak hand. So this appears to be a raise or fold situation, and given your relative position, I tend to fold here more than raise. If you were mixing it up, I guess that's fine too.


EDIT: Changed "2+2ers behind you" to "TAGs behind you" in Hand 2, I must have been confused with another post. Although both TAGs and LAGs are likely to raise a limp here anyway.

[JeffO]

Hand 2) Perhaps I'm missing some value bets from draws like this in early position, but I'm not sure I like the check raise on the flop or turn. First, on the flop when MP3 bets out and gets two callers behind him. You raise out of position, don't you fear a 3 bet from MP3 which might drive the others out behind him making it heads up?

I guess you might clean up some K outs, but I rarely make this play from EP. Perhaps a leak in my game.

[OrangeHeat]

Hand 1:

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (13 BB) K (5 players)
SB checks, UTG bets, Peter_rus calls, CO calls, Button raises, SB folds, UTG 3-bets, Peter_rus calls, CO calls, Button calls.


[/ QUOTE ]

This should be a cap on the turn. The sb has already folded, the board is draw heavy, and it is pretty obvious that at least the button and UTG will call the cap.

You may lose the cutoff but your getting 3 bets from UTG and button and only losing 2 from CO worst case if he doesn't call the cap. Best case they all call it.

Orange

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2) Perhaps I'm missing some value bets from draws like this in early position, but I'm not sure I like the check raise on the flop or turn. First, on the flop when MP3 bets out and gets two callers behind him. You raise out of position, don't you fear a 3 bet from MP3 which might drive the others out behind him making it heads up?

I guess you might clean up some K outs, but I rarely make this play from EP. Perhaps a leak in my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more so raising for value against players (LPs and LAGs) that are likely to call with any Q, any spade draw, and any straight draw (all of which exist on this board). He has two players trapped between the bettor(MP3) and himself, and manages to get a cold caller in there too (MP2).

On the turn he picks up the OESD along with his flush draw, and again gets two players trapped in between himself and the bettor (MP2, an LP who probably came alive with QJ turned two pair) and raises again for value with the trapped field (as he has now picked up another 6 outs on his draw).

I don't think there is any question here that these raises are correct, as you want to build up a huge pot those times you hit your hands. You aren't going to get that value when you make it (i.e. on the river), so build on the draw...he is less than a 2:1 dog on the flop to make his flush draw by the river and improves to flush and straight draws on the turn bringing him below 4:1 (with 3 other players involved).

I play this hand exactly that same nearly 100% of the time given these conditions. But maybe I'm the one with the leak? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Peter_rus]

I just called turn cause i want to trap UTG to bet out river for value so i could raise as well as CO can help me to get some more bets on turn.

[OrangeHeat]

[ QUOTE ]
I just called turn cause i want to trap UTG to bet out river for value so i could raise as well as

[/ QUOTE ]

CO and Button may not call any bets on river - especially if they missed draws on this board. I like getting the money in when they still seem interested.

Your line worked well too.

Orange

[William Jockusch]

TStone: I don't want to let the big blind in for free, and the small bind in for cheap. I think this is especially true in Party 15/30, with its $10 small blind.

[ChicagoTroy]

In addition to the other comment, this may be a little Peter-specific. He raises with a wide variety of hands preflop (77 UTG), and never limp-reraises, so folks with notes on him are more likely to call 2 cold from him, as seen in this example.

You certainly have to play better than your opponents post flop, but that doesn't seem to be a problem for him.

[tpir90036]

[ QUOTE ]
Both hands against typical 15/30...who also don't pay much credits to my PF raises.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Peter_rus is UTG+1 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Peter_rus raises</font>,

[/ QUOTE ]
Ha ha ha.

Seriously though. Both hands look good. I probably cap the turn in hand #1 fearing that my action will dry up on the river and I would rather get the bets in now.... but that's just me.

Hand #2 looks good too. I am not a pre-flop nazi so the only thing I am going to say is that the "raise or fold" line with this does not make much sense to me as it seems a multi-way pot would be better and on average if you get called when you raise with KT. I have certainly played in games where I would limp this hand from all over the place. The turn check-raise is certainly good for value purposes since you are 2:1 going to the river assuming no one holds any of your outs and all 3 will call....which they did.

Ni Hans.
-tpir

[Peter_rus]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Both hands against typical 15/30...who also don't pay much credits to my PF raises.

[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot to add 'and i like it':-)

[Peter_rus]

If anyone curious of them:-)


Hand 1.

Button shows K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG K /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Hand 2

MP2 shows Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
MP3 shows K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

And im pretty sure CO has AK.

[Erik W]

FWIW
Hit the third nuts.