razz odds - how to calculate?

[donger]

Hi,
I've been studying Sklansky on Razz and playing lots of 2/4 razz on full tilt. The book has little snippets of odds interspersed with the text. For instance, the fact that it is 4:1 against outflopping one opponent, 10:1 against outflopping two, etc.

I would like to learn the how to calculate these. I plan to adjust my expectations based on my pair cards or needed cards being dead in other hands.

[B Mando]

Do people actually play razz on fulltilt? What limits are usually going? Are there ever any Stud8 game there? Razz, in my opinion, is a pretty silly game but I imagine it is very profitable. Sorry I didnt answer your question...

[BlueBear]

http://www.twodimes.net

[Nick_Foxx]

what odds are you looking to calculate?
razz is relatively straightforward in terms of probability

for example, if you have four unpaired babies on 4th street, you will have at most 16 outs to make an 8 and 20 outs to make a 9

you can adjust this number of "maximum outs" by the number of your outs that you already see in other peoples' hands... so if you have deuce-five-seven-trey, you are trying to make an 8 (or better), and you see an ace and two sixes out, you have 16-3, or 13 outs left

your probability of hitting your 8 on 5th street, therefore, is approximately 13 out of 40... the denominator of course will change depending on the number of cards you have seen (i.e., number of opponents at the table, how many of your opponents have folded on 3rd st, etc.)

you can also calculate showdown odds in the same way... when you have four unpaired babies on 4th street and go all the way, your odds of completing an 8 will range between about 50% and 80% depending on how many of your cards are out

mike

[sketch]

It's odd. Razz is pretty much the only non-HE game constantly going on. There is sometimes one table going on 2/4 or higher. I mean, if you'd really like to see how often the games go, you can just download the client and observe.

[GuruCane]

I actually asked this question about a month ago. Nick's response is on point. I also used the twodimes.net calculator to try to rank hands and come up with general rules of thumb.

One of the biggest surprises to me was the lack of totally dominating hands (the 70% favorites heads up and the pr vs pr 80% favorites (I know, the latter is not technically "dominated")) like you have in hold em (at least early on). On fourth street my general rule turned out to be that it's almost always worth calling with a four card 9 or lower unless you are absolutely WAY behind (rough 9 vs poss wheel, for eg). It seems that you are never more than a 65% dog. Obviously the game would have to be loose to get these pot odds and, since Razz games with skilled players often end up heads up, this isn't of much help---calling as a 65% dog is almost certainly foolish in such an instance.

Different story when you get to 6th street where when you are drawing vs. a made hand you are (almost?) always 60% or worse.

5th street Sklansky tells you what you need to know. I also learned that a smooth 8 isn't even a 2-1 dog to a made 9, so you can get odds to call.

If anything above is off base I apologize, and feel free to correct me.

Winning at Razz, when playing skilled players, requires skills that are not taught, I think. Sklansky says that reading your opponents is key and I think that it is the single most important skill in Razz since the boards are in front of you. You can really get into the psychology of poker in this game (thinking on many levels as discussed in TOP). Then again, most plays seem to be boringly standard as Sklansky points out. I don't know why I decided to pick up the game as it is even more of grind than LHE.