Long Island Social Club Legality?

[GameBreaker]

I became aware of a social club opening in my local area (central long island). I was wondering if anyone had any information they could share with me as to the legality of such a club. I am not looking for the "its illegal because its against the law" type of response.

I would be very grateful if anyone has first hand experience with this type of "club". Also if anyone could point me in the direction of New York Statutes that directly apply to this type of venture.

I am thinking of contacting an attorney to reserach this for me, but am not even sure as to what type of attorney to contact.

Any help you guys can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Steve

[Fins]

Not exactly sure what you're asking but maybe this is of interest...
Can't find the link I was looking for but here's another place to look/post Poker & Gaming Law Forum (http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=30) - not real active but probably worth perusing.

- Fins

[GameBreaker]

Thank you. That is exactly the kinda thing I was looking for.

If anyone has any links to a listing of NYS laws regarding gambling or social clubs I would be greatly appreciative.

Thaks again guys.

Steve

[dabluebery]

Big Slick, Inc. I went and checked this place out. Apparently it's open. I "joined," which means they took my picture and apparently made an ID card.

I had the same questions about the legality of the place. I was satisfied enough to consider playing when I learned that even the worst case (if it got raided) the most exposure I'd have is just losing whatever money I had tied up. I asked someone familiar with gambling law about this.

I'll be playing low stakes limit holdem, and that's why I haven't been there yet. I just don't want to pay for time at $5 per half hour..... I'll just play online. Unless I hear through the grapevine that the low-limit games are real soft.

Decent place, nice setup, nice guys. I live real close, so it could be cool, but still have questions. Good luck, maybe see you there one day. Or maybe not!

Rob

[stags14]

<Legality of Poker in New York City.

There is no legal framework for the operation of a private poker club.
Those that do exist tend to keep their locations secret and risk being
raided by the NYPD and being closed down.

Although there are no specific laws prohibiting or regulating the game
of poker. There are laws banning gambling and legislation covering
games of chance.

For poker to be legally played it would have to be shown that poker is
a game of skill and not a game of chance and therefore not gambling.
As far as I can ascertain, the legality of poker in New York has not
been tested in the courts.

The New York State Constitution bans all forms of gambling with some
exceptions. There is also legislation covering games of chance.
http://www.racing.state.ny.us/about/about.home.htm

In contrast bridge is considered a game of skill so bridge tournaments are allowed.

Is poker a game of chance and therefore a gambling game or is it a game of skill?

Poker is considered by many to be a game of skill and as such is not
gambling. A number of companies are now taking advantage of this fact
and are offering skill-based games over the internet. It remains to be
seen whether or not there will be any legal challenges to these
operations.

Such a company is WorldWinner, an online game site that runs games of
skill. According to gambling industry consultancy, Christian Capital
Advisors, since there’s skill involved you can’t really call it
gambling. Mr Killeen, chief executive of WorldWinner compares his
company’s role to that of the United States Tennis Association, which
organizes the U.S. Open tournament. “We provide the setting, award the
prizes and create the draws,” he said. “We take a management fee and
award the prize to the winners.”
http://digitalsqueeze.com/drupal/node/view/2905

E-bridge offers online poker tournaments. It list 13 states where
players cannot participate in fee-based tournaments. New York is not
listed.
http://www.e-spades.com/spades/base/termsofuse.asp

A company that plans to offer online poker also s that poker is a
game of skill. Chuck Humphrey takes a look at legislation.
http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Articles-Notes/online-poker-skill.htm

Playing for Profits: Games of Chance vs. Games of Skill.
This article looks at what determines whether a contest is a game of
chance (gambling) or a game of skill.
http://www.phoneplusmag.com/articles/361FEAT4.html

Poker: A Game of Chance or Skill
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/news/archive/local_15329337.shtml

Tournament poker compared to golf.
http://loveandcasinowar.com/blogarch/000529.php

The situation in New York.
New York currently has a number of poker clubs that are operating as
private clubs. They operate under great secrecy. This article
describes such a club. “There seems to be little for the clubs to
worry about. A request to the NYPD for a comment on poker rooms, made
last Tuesday, goes unanswered.” (New York Daily News, August 7, 2004).
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/219923p-189120c.html

After a review on this website a poker club was raided and closed by
the NYPD. (Riding the F Train. Notes from Underground. New York City
Poker Room Reviews).
http://ftrain.blogspot.com/2004_08_01_ftrain_archive.html

Stacks and the City describes how one owner operates. The location of
the club is kept secret. A website gives players a telephone number so
that they can find the location of the club. Once there are enough
members, the website will be removed.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/story/217769p-187359c.html

A letter published on the site of the National Indian Gaming
Commission considers the legality of opening a poker club in New York.
It considers various aspects of the law and concludes that playing
poker is legal. A summary of the arguments follows:

Poker is a Class II game in the State of New York as defined by the
Indian Gaming Regulatory Act. As a Class II game poker is subject to
tribal and federal regulation only.

The New York State Constitution provides, that “no . . . gambling . .
. shall hereafter be authorized or allowed within this state; and the
legislature shall pass appropriate laws to prevent offenses against
any of the provisions of this section.” N.Y. CONST., art. I, § 9, cl.
1.

However the state legislature has created a number of “exceptions” and
has established a Racing and Wagering Board. The legislature has
addressed the play of various games of chance but it has not enacted
any specific statutory provision authorizing the play of poker. In the
absence of express approval to the playing of poker, the crucial
determination becomes whether New York explicitly prohibits its play.

New York’s constitutional provision relating to gambling is not
self-executing. See People v. Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d 936, 942
(N.Y.Co.Ct. 1973). The New York constitution directs the Legislature
to “pass appropriate laws to prevent offenses against any of the
provisions of this section.” N.Y. CONST., art. I., § 9, cl.1. The
constitutional provision “requires enforcement by the Legislature.”
Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d at 942 (citations omitted). Therefore,
gambling is not a crime unless made so by statute. People ex rel.
Collins v. McLaughlin, 113 N.Y.S. 188, 197 (N.Y.A.D. 1 Dept. 1908),
appeal dismissed, 194 N.Y. 556 (N.Y. 1909).

As directed, the State legislature “has legislated in the field of
gambling and by the Penal Law, delineated the conduct to be prohibited
throughout the state.” Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d at 942.
Significantly, “[t]he only gambling activities which are prohibited
are promoting gambling (PL §§ 225.05 and 225.10), possession of
gambling records (PL §§ 225.15 and 225.20) and possession of a
gambling device (PL § 225.30).” People v. Melton, 578 N.Y.S.2d 377,
378 (N.Y. Sup. 1991). Therefore, playing or engaging in its play are
not explicitly prohibited by New York penal laws.

New York sate penal law follows the policy of penalizing only the
promoter and not the player. See Watts v. Malatesta, 262 N.Y. 80, 82
(N.Y. 1933) (casual betting or gaming by individuals as distinguished
from betting or gambling as a business or profession, is not a crime).
New York has not treated individuals participants in gambling games
as criminals. Melton, 578 N.Y.S.2d at 378. Participating in gambling
games on the same terms as other players for amusement or recreation
is lawful. See Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d at 940. More specifically,
the “Legislature . . . has excluded the ‘player’ from the reach of the
Penal Law.” Id.

New York gambling laws are “intended and designed to sanction and
facilitate the prosecution of the professional book-maker and other
professional operators and promoters of unlawful gambling activity.
The individual player or bettor is excluded from its prohibitions.
People v. DiCarlo, 309 N.Y.S.2d 791, 792 (N.Y.Co.Ct. 1970). Although
“promoting” the play of poker may be unlawful, participating in
gambling games on the same terms as other players for amusement or
recreation is lawful. See Wilkerson, 342 N.Y.S.2d at 940.
The fact that New York’s penal code prohibits the promotion of
gambling is not the significant factor. The determining question is
whether the state criminal laws prohibit the play of the game, in this
case poker. As we have seen, the penal code does not make the play of
poker a criminal violation.
New York “regulates” rather than “prohibits” gambling in general.
Therefore, the play of poker is not seen as totally repugnant to the
State’s public policy. See Masantucket Pequot Tribe v. State of
Connecticut, 913 F.2d 1024, 1021 (2nd Cir. 1990) (Connecticut law
applicable to class III gaming is regulatory rather than prohibitive;
thus, under IGRA, Connecticut was required to enter into good-faith
negotiations with Indian tribe for purpose of formulating tribal-state
compact).
There is no serious dispute that poker is played within private homes
and public locations throughout the State of New York. We concluded,
therefore, that the requirement contained in section 2703(7)(A)(ii),
for the game to be “played at any location n the state,” is also
satisfied.
The Oneida Indian Nation may offer non-banking poker at its Club as
class II gaming, so long as it is being “played in conformity with the
laws and regulations (if any) of . . . [New York] State regarding
hours of operation of such card games or limitations on wagers or pot
sizes in such card games.” 25 U.S.C. § 2703(7)(A)(ii). Since social
poker games are presently not regulated in New York, there are no
rules on hours, periods of operation, wagers or pot sizes.
http://www.nigc.gov/nigc/documents/opinions/pokerclub.jsp


<Additional links:>
<New York regulation of games of chance.>
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/corp/pdfs/mrgoc.pdf

<Taxes & IRS>
http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/pokerblog/archives/000110.php

[hoterdoc]

Impressively informative post. Are you a lawyer?
doc

[JAYbigslick]

hi dablueberry,

Our limit low stakes time charge changes and is less than $5.

i dont want to put it on a public forum but if you are interested i can PM it to you.

I am actually glad to see some of our members looking into the legality of it they will see how things work and be aware.

See you at Big Slick