100nl KK vs a LAG, how is my line?

[Seether]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($139.35)
Hero ($175.55)
UTG ($525.41)
UTG+1 ($85.4)
MP1 ($272.6)
MP2 ($178)
MP3 ($68.3)
CO ($388.06)
Button ($58.95)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $1. UTG posts a blind of $3.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $2, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, UTG calls $8, MP2 folds, SB folds.

Flop: ($25) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $14</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $28</font>, Hero calls $14.

Turn: ($81) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $75</font>, Hero calls $137.55 (All-In), UTG calls $62.55.

River: ($356.10) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $356.10

[Sponger15SB]

That sounds about right. You got what you wanted didn't you?

If he is a LAG he bets the turn big every time right?

[Seether]

Yeah I felt that he would bet this turn no matter what after showing the flop aggression. Im wondering if my half pot bet was the way to go on the flop and hoping for a raise or just letting him bluff off his chips would be the best line on this uncoordinated board.

[kurto]

I find it so hard to repond to these kinds of posts without info on UTG.

Based on the little info provided... UTG is the large stack at the table. Did he earn that stack because he's good? Barring any additional information, I would assume he's decent.

If UTG isn't an idiot and a habitual bluffer, what could he have to warrant a raise of 1/6th of his stack? What if he limped in with pocket 6s? A-2 suited? Pocket Aces?

Again, with so little info, I can only guess. I just know that on Pokerstars, you generally find that the people with huge stacks (above the buyin) get them because they're not betting with crap.

[gergery]

I’d have raised more preflop. You’re giving UTG 3:1 pot odds plus good implied odds since you’re willing to back your stack on a 1-pair hand.

I like the flop bet and call vs. LAG player, and I like the turn check and push too. His turn bet seems too big to be 2x or QQ/66. I’d figure him for AQ/JJ maybe. I think vs. a LAG your check call strategy wins the most when ahead and loses the same when behind.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

Looks fine but BET THE DAMN POT.

you guys and your "deception". When will you learn that in these games, the best line with a big hand (esp when you are the PF aggressor) is to BET THE POT.

[amoeba]

there are other reasons not to bet the pot.

I hardly call KK a big hand on that flop. All you have is a single pair. anything that beats AQ beats KK.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
there are other reasons not to bet the pot.

I hardly call KK a big hand on that flop. All you have is a single pair. anything that beats AQ beats KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why i crush the online NL and you do not.

[tbach24]

Good point amoeba. I don't really like the bet on the flop, I think 2/3 pot would've been appropriate. I might've called just the double to try and hit my set, you would definetly get paid off. However the turn play is not great. I wouldn't have pushed there. AA (which has you hammered) definetly seems to be a strong possibility.

[amoeba]

you are too arrogant for your own good without logic to back up your arguments.

so explain to me why its so good to bet out pot instead of 2/3 pot on a drawless flop oh wise one?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
you are too arrogant for your own good without logic to back up your arguments.

so explain to me why its so good to bet out pot instead of 2/3 pot on a drawless flop oh wise one?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is very simple. The villans will call you to the river with all kinds of hands that you beat. This often includes middle and even bottom pair (as well as the noobs who call you down w/ 22 and other small pocket pairs).

I dont mean to sound like a jerk, but you guys really need to learn that you are giving up much EV by underbetting and checking flops like this.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
I might've called just the double to try and hit my set, you would definetly get paid off. However the turn play is not great. I wouldn't have pushed there. AA (which has you hammered) definetly seems to be a strong possibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, first of all DO NOT DRAW TO 2 OUTERS. KK is the best hand here most of the time. If for some reason you know you are beat, you simply fold; in this situation you should not fold.

[Seether]

I bet half the pot hoping he would sense weakness and raise me. This guy was very aggressive and trying to bully the table.

Anyways he was an idiot and showed 7h, Qh and MHIG. I put him on AQ or KQ/QJ in which the turn made it so he was drawing to two outs, thus this is one of the reasons I decided to go with the push.

[amoeba]

please.

first of all the flop was not checked.Granted it might have been a bit underbet but fundamentally there is almost no difference between betting 2/3 pot and pot.

secondly, you are describing a calling station while the title clearly says playing against a LAG. LAGs will raise you on that flop and you will not know whether he really has the set or whether he is bluffing. If you are prepared to go all in anyways, then obviously betting 2/3 pot or betting pot does not make a difference. If however, stacks are deep enough where you might laydown to a sizable flop raise, then the 2/3 pot option does save you a bit of money.

Since there really are no draws, I'm not afraid of charging less on the flop.

doing the 2/3 pot bet also allows you to make the same bet when you miss with AK on the flop and try to take it down for cheaper on the flop or when you bet midpair on a A high or K high board for cheaper.

[amoeba]

what was the blind size in this one?

1/2 or 2/4 ?

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
secondly, you are describing a calling station while the title clearly says playing against a LAG. LAGs will raise you on that flop and you will not know whether he really has the set or whether he is bluffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason you should bet into a LAG is because you were the preflop agressor. Risking giving a free card is a bad idea here, as it surely will only help him.


[ QUOTE ]

If however, stacks are deep enough where you might laydown to a sizable flop raise, then the 2/3 pot option does save you a bit of money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if the stacks are pretty deep, against said LAG i would RARELY law this hand down on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]
Since there really are no draws, I'm not afraid of charging less on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

While this makes sense, you should want to charge the most as to make the most money on this hand. 2/3-full pot bet diff will not make this guy lay down any extra hands.

[Seether]

[ QUOTE ]
I hardly call KK a big hand on that flop. All you have is a single pair. anything that beats AQ beats KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you dont call kings a good hand on this flop what do you put him on? He was utg and limped, if he had AA he would have most likely limp reraised not limped and called a raise. I think QQ would have raised preflop as well. 22 and 66 are possibilites but so is AQ.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hardly call KK a big hand on that flop. All you have is a single pair. anything that beats AQ beats KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you dont call kings a good hand on this flop what do you put him on? He was utg and limped, if he had AA he would have most likely limp reraised not limped and called a raise. I think QQ would have raised preflop as well. 22 and 66 are possibilites but so is AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

KK is the best hand here 90%+ of the time.

[amoeba]

once again, not a free card. 2/3 pot is still enough to give bad odds to anything he is drawing to. If he is truly LAG, it doesn't matter what you bet on the flop as he will call your turn bet as well.

hero is playing at almost 100BB stacks and villain has him covered well. lets say villain reraised all in on the flop. would you call? if you would call regardless, then again it doesn't matter if you bet 2/3 pot or pot. If you are inclined to fold, then obviously 2/3 pot is better.

To your third point. I'm not trying to make villain laydown anything. The only time that a pot sized bet is better than 2/3 pot sized bet in this situation is if villain will call your flop bet but laydown to your turn bet or check through the turn should hero decide to check the turn as he elected to do here . then yes, you make an extra 1/3 pot.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I hardly call KK a big hand on that flop. All you have is a single pair. anything that beats AQ beats KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you dont call kings a good hand on this flop what do you put him on? He was utg and limped, if he had AA he would have most likely limp reraised not limped and called a raise. I think QQ would have raised preflop as well. 22 and 66 are possibilites but so is AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

KK is the best hand here 90%+ of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

he turned over Q7s right? its not likely for him to have Q6 or Q2? Do LAGS limp in with AQ?

Again, I'm not saying I'm seeing monsters but I'm not sure I want to play with all of my 100BB stack with just a single pair.

Also, if he is so lag, you should really raise more preflop and consider move of honor assuming he will call preflop with anything but fold if he doesn't pair.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
once again, not a free card. 2/3 pot is still enough to give bad odds to anything he is drawing to. If he is truly LAG, it doesn't matter what you bet on the flop as he will call your turn bet as well.

hero is playing at almost 200BB stacks and villain has him covered well. lets say villain reraised all in on the flop. would you call? if you would call regardless, then again it doesn't matter if you bet 2/3 pot or pot. If you are inclined to fold, then obviously 2/3 pot is better.

To your third point. I'm not trying to make villain laydown anything. The only time that a pot sized bet is better than 2/3 pot sized bet in this situation is if villain will call your flop bet but laydown to your turn bet or check through the turn should hero decide to check the turn as he elected to do here . then yes, you make an extra 1/3 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call given the villan is a LAG.

I agree you dont want him to lay down a hand, thats why you bet the full pot (he will call 2/3 or pot if he was gonna call at all)

The real reason you bet the pot is..... you are pushing an edge. You want to put in money w/ the best of it. In a higher stakes, tougher game then this would be more debatable.

[Seether]

[ QUOTE ]
Q6

[/ QUOTE ]
If he had this hand he was counterfeited by the turn. The chance of him having q2 is greatly reduced by the turn 2.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
Again, I'm not saying I'm seeing monsters but I'm not sure I want to play with all of my 100BB stack with just a single pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you need to become more aggressive. Sure your varience will go up, but so will your WR.

[amoeba]

yes I agree that you want to put in money with the best of it.

My whole point is that since you would call anyways, whether referring to his flop reraise or his turn bet, then you are pretty much always assuming you have the best of it regardless of what cards come, correct?

I also agree that he would call pot if he is going to call 2/3. same thing, he would fold to 2/3 if he is going to fold to pot. My whole point is that the difference comes when he raises your bet and you are inclined to fold, then 2/3 and pot makes a bit of a difference. If you are never inclined to fold then there is still no difference between the two.

[amoeba]

its amusing you make a comment about my aggression based on my comments on somebody else's hand.

You have no idea how aggressive I am or how passive I am.

I am simply refuting the fact that in low stakes NL, its always better to bet pot on the flop with TPTK or overpair.

[Piz0wn0reD!!!!!!]

[ QUOTE ]
yes I agree that you want to put in money with the best of it.

My whole point is that since you would call anyways, whether referring to his flop reraise or his turn bet, then you are pretty much always assuming you have the best of it regardless of what cards come, correct?

I also agree that he would call pot if he is going to call 2/3. same thing, he would fold to 2/3 if he is going to fold to pot. My whole point is that the difference comes when he raises your bet and you are inclined to fold, then 2/3 and pot makes a bit of a difference. If you are never inclined to fold then there is still no difference between the two.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. However this is a moot point since you should be inclined to call for your stack here. I think folding to a push is wrong more than 90% of the time.

[fimbulwinter]

I like
http://www.webgeordie.co.uk/borat/images/homepage.jpg

Esp good is the turn C/R against a laggy. board pairs he'll bet for sure, no need to worry about him checking it through with two clubs. I don't like against a non-laggy, but against him is parfect.

fim

ps- one other thing to remember; you're waiting for hands and he's a LAG, that means you want him to win all the small pots and lose all the big ones. LAG's LOVE to gambooooool and will pay ridiculous prices to see flops out of position, especially if they believe someone is trying to hone in on your schtick. to that end, raising bigger preflop when in position against a LAG worked quite well for me at 100 and 200NL at party when i played there. this also trains them to raise you when you're OOP, which is fine as you're only playing hands OOP that can handle a raise (and some which ar begging to be limp-raised...) right? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[amoeba]

would you have played differently had the turn came a 3 instead? what about a 6 or Q ? I don't think you would have. maybe with the queen.


why just call his raise on the flop? was it because you thought if you rereraised, you would only get hands that beat you to call or because you knew you were ahead but you wanted to induce him to bluff the turn?

[amoeba]

agreed. I also think you should call a push.

Whether you should aim to get a push though is another matter entirely.

[Seether]

Well I think I would have played it the same if a 3 or 6 came on the turn, I viewed him as a lag but more of an overly aggressive person than overly loose. With a queen or an ace on the turn I would have definantly been in a tougher spot and I probably would have led out to see what his action would be (more likely to lead out on an ace turn and more likely to check fold a queen on the turn).

I only called the raise for all the reasons that you mentioned, there was a slight chance that he was ahead and I know that I would be able to get him to commit more of his stack if I let him do the betting instead of him having to call. I had actually expected him to bet smaller on the turn and fold to my check raise all in if the turn had been a safe card.

[amoeba]

I imagine this guy is a pseudo smart LAG. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit.

I do like your line when playing against somebody like this by letting him bluff off his stack instead of having him call your bets because I'm not so sure smart LAGs call your bets on later streets.

still, his overbet on the turn definitely makes me nervous.

I actually think your villain up until the point at which he called your all in raise, played pretty well. at least I like the way he elected to bluff the flop and turn.

[BobboFitos]

(Amoeba's post)

Excellent post. I would post my thoughts but I would only repeat this.