When do you look at your cards?

[Brad F.]

In my local live tourneys, there are probably about 10-15% of the entrants who look at their cards when it is their turn to act. Otherwise everyone just looks at them right when they are dealt.

Because of this, do you think it would be to my advantage to look at my cards right away? I'd usually watch the opponents look at their cards to try and get reads, but that's hard to do when there are 5-6 people looking at them at the same time. Plus I feel I might be giving an advantage to my opponents if they all can watch me look at my cards when I can't really read them when they first look.

Any thoughts? Is this normal in tourneys?

Brad

[Murdz]

It is difficult to get a read on people, when they all look at their cards at the same time after being dealt. However, that in itself tells you, your opponents are not very sophisitcated. I usually try to ascertain who the best players are at the table, and then watch them when they look at their cards. Just pick one or two people at first and watch them every hand. Furthermore, the key is to watch and see of they show the hand down. Remember, you are only getting 1/2 the story if you stop paying attention after you muck.

You should never, ever, ever look at your cards until it's your turn to act. First, it's a self-control thing. You don't want to give away any subconscious tells. Second, you can look at the other actors at the table, rather than trying to think what your play is. When you do look at your cards, look at them for three to four seconds every time and memorize them. You never want to look back at your cards while the hand is ongoing. That is a tell as well.

[gsyme]

To me it's obvious that almost anyone would give the strongest tell right after looking at one's cards. That's the *worst* time to have everybody watching.

If you wait to look at your cards, you might have a read on one or two people, but everyone will have a read on you.

[fnord_too]

A lot of pros advocate waiting until the action is on you to look at your cards. At least TJ Cloutier suggests just the opposite.

The real tells you try to avoid by looking at your cards when it is your turn are mannerisms that suggest you have or don't have an interest in playing the hand (and even how strongly you want to play it). (These tells are why good players advocate looking left before you act.)

I have do not get to play live very often, but from everything I have heard, the point is pretty debatable. I personally will probably first try looking at my cards straight off when I get to play more live. I think if you have the same routine regardless of what your cards are this is slightly better, as you can view the action in the context of your cards and think through possible scenarios. The trick of course is to do the exact same thing every time, which is easier said than done.

[37offsuit]

It depends on position for me. If I'm in EP or am in the blinds, I try to look at my cards while people are distracted with the deal. I look at them as I get them when I do this. In middle to late I wait until it's my turn, the later you are, the less people getting information before they act.

If I notice someone checking me out all the time when I look, sometimes I give them the hairy eyeball or will feign a giant smile or overly done frown regardless of my cards.

[Murdz]

[ QUOTE ]
To me it's obvious that almost anyone would give the strongest tell right after looking at one's cards. That's the *worst* time to have everybody watching.

If you wait to look at your cards, you might have a read on one or two people, but everyone will have a read on you.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all, you assume everyone is paying attention. That simply isn't the case. Second, it is easier to control yourself for 3 or 4 seconds when you look at the cards the same way every time than it is for minutes on end when you are waiting for the hand to come around to you.

[37offsuit]

Or do something completely different every time, which is much easier. It can also be distracting to players watching you when you use overly exagerated expressions. The key is to know which expression you will be using before you look. This will break up any correlation between your acting and your cards.

[pindawg]

At least my opponents can't see my peeing my pants when I look down and see pocket aces. Is that a tell?

[otnemem]

[ QUOTE ]
It is difficult to get a read on people, when they all look at their cards at the same time after being dealt. However, that in itself tells you, your opponents are not very sophisitcated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never realized that this was a matter of sophistication... Do you play mostly live games? I find that most people at a full ring do look at their cards when they're dealt, rather than waiting for the action to get to them.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
At least my opponents can't see my peeing my pants when I look down and see pocket aces. Is that a tell?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sorry I was looking at your avatar, did you say something?

[Brad F.]

Murdz, you made a couple good points, but the mentioning of looking at your cards for 3-4 seconds is a great piece of advice IMO.

I don't know how many times I have pocket pairs and then have to look back down at them to see what suits they are.

I'm working on my reads obviously as much as possible, and when the person first looks at their cards is huge. If they look down at them after the flop, as most of the folks in these tourneys are really beginners it seems, I can read them like a book. I had a guy check behind on the turn, and then a queen came up on the river. He looked at his cards, and then bet the minimum. I don't remember my holding, but he did that every time he had paired the board it seemed.

Anyway, good advice Murdz. I'm going to try and look at my cards longer and make my actions more routine. It just seems unnatural to look at them right away, so I guess I'll continue to wait till it's my turn, and just hope I can keep my routine straight and not give up tells of my own.

Brad

[woodguy]

I started out looking at my cards right away, but since have started to look at them only when its my turn.

Why?

1) Unconsious tells: often people who look early and are going to play a pot grab their chips or start counting their chips without thinking about it. I was doing this too, now I don't.
You will also notice people move their cards getting ready to muck when its their turn....again you can avoid this.

2) If you have looked at your cards early and you want to play the hand, you often think about how you are going to play the hand and miss some important info while the other players are betting.

3) Often in LP if I watch the other players closely and no one is particularly excited by their cards, I know I'm going to raise even before I look at my cards. If I was just reading my cards, I might have missed the fact the the two limpers in the pot were not looking too excited and I might muck my trash instead of stealing some weak bets.

4) I have found I'm better at controlling my emotions if I read when its my turn. i.e. I have KK in LP. If I read early, I might grab my chips too early or show a little excitement.
Now I have a routine. (look left, read cards, memorize, count to three, then act) The routine helps keep me calm and minimizes tells.

I use the time until its my turn to try to put my opponents on a hand, then decide what kind of cards I want to play and then look, instead of looking at them and deciding if I want to play them. I'm not being nit-picky, there is a difference.

Also, when I'm in the BB I'll look early and drop a chip on my cards about 80% of the time, seems to help minimize steal attempts, but you have to mix it up.

I'm not the burning bush, but this seems to work for me.

Regards,
Woodguy

[Murdz]

[ QUOTE ]


I never realized that this was a matter of sophistication... Do you play mostly live games? I find that most people at a full ring do look at their cards when they're dealt, rather than waiting for the action to get to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play much better live than I do on the internet. I am probably overall a losing player online. Mainly, because when I play live, I try and play the people and not my cards. On the internet, betting patterns and maybe, maybe how long it takes for them to make a decision are the only tells available. You are only getting 1/2 the equation.

My main casino is Harrah's New Orleans. It's a great place to people watch and there is a wide disparity in skill amongest the players. In live play, there is so much to go on. Normally, the first thing I look for is age. Then I look at dress. Then I look at the player's watch and any other jewelry. All these things are important. Whether in a ring game or in a tourney.

Once the game starts, I absolutely notice when people look at their cards. If they look at them when they are dealt, then I know they don't play live much or don't care about tells. If there is any hesitation, I know it's a bluff or if pre-flop then a crappy hand.

In a ring game, especially at the lower levels, this may be less important due to the fact that players change tables, don't stay for long or are just playing for entertainment purposes. But I still think relevant.

I do think the most important thing in a nl tournament, is to play your hand the same way every time. Do not just shove your chips in the pot and sit back with your arms folded, grinning. Always take the same amount of time whether you muck or play the hand. Self control is very important.

[Murdz]

[ QUOTE ]
Or do something completely different every time, which is much easier. It can also be distracting to players watching you when you use overly exagerated expressions. The key is to know which expression you will be using before you look. This will break up any correlation between your acting and your cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is great advice for an experienced live player. For a novice to intermediate player, the best thing to do is act the same way every time. You are entering another variable into an equation that already is complicated.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I never realized that this was a matter of sophistication... Do you play mostly live games? I find that most people at a full ring do look at their cards when they're dealt, rather than waiting for the action to get to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play much better live than I do on the internet. I am probably overall a losing player online. Mainly, because when I play live, I try and play the people and not my cards. On the internet, betting patterns and maybe, maybe how long it takes for them to make a decision are the only tells available. You are only getting 1/2 the equation.

My main casino is Harrah's New Orleans. It's a great place to people watch and there is a wide disparity in skill amongest the players. In live play, there is so much to go on. Normally, the first thing I look for is age. Then I look at dress. Then I look at the player's watch and any other jewelry. All these things are important. Whether in a ring game or in a tourney.

Once the game starts, I absolutely notice when people look at their cards. If they look at them when they are dealt, then I know they don't play live much or don't care about tells. If there is any hesitation, I know it's a bluff or if pre-flop then a crappy hand.

In a ring game, especially at the lower levels, this may be less important due to the fact that players change tables, don't stay for long or are just playing for entertainment purposes. But I still think relevant.

I do think the most important thing in a nl tournament, is to play your hand the same way every time. Do not just shove your chips in the pot and sit back with your arms folded, grinning. Always take the same amount of time whether you muck or play the hand. Self control is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the funniest sh!t i've read in a long time, thanks. couple of questions...

did you help write "TILT"?

can you "see into their souls"?

follow up question:
what do their souls look like?

[SossMan]

I look at my cards once, drop my buddha card protector on them, and then start ascertaining the situation. I certainly don't want everyone at the table looking at me when I go to muck my J2o. They may see a twitch in my eye, or that I crack my neck when I have offsuited 8 gappers, or how I breathe more shallow when I have suited broadway cards.

[Murdz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


I never realized that this was a matter of sophistication... Do you play mostly live games? I find that most people at a full ring do look at their cards when they're dealt, rather than waiting for the action to get to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play much better live than I do on the internet. I am probably overall a losing player online. Mainly, because when I play live, I try and play the people and not my cards. On the internet, betting patterns and maybe, maybe how long it takes for them to make a decision are the only tells available. You are only getting 1/2 the equation.

My main casino is Harrah's New Orleans. It's a great place to people watch and there is a wide disparity in skill amongest the players. In live play, there is so much to go on. Normally, the first thing I look for is age. Then I look at dress. Then I look at the player's watch and any other jewelry. All these things are important. Whether in a ring game or in a tourney.

Once the game starts, I absolutely notice when people look at their cards. If they look at them when they are dealt, then I know they don't play live much or don't care about tells. If there is any hesitation, I know it's a bluff or if pre-flop then a crappy hand.

In a ring game, especially at the lower levels, this may be less important due to the fact that players change tables, don't stay for long or are just playing for entertainment purposes. But I still think relevant.

I do think the most important thing in a nl tournament, is to play your hand the same way every time. Do not just shove your chips in the pot and sit back with your arms folded, grinning. Always take the same amount of time whether you muck or play the hand. Self control is very important.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is the funniest sh!t i've read in a long time, thanks. couple of questions...

did you help write "TILT"?

can you "see into their souls"?

follow up question:
what do their souls look like?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey smart ass, show up with your baseball hat tunred around backwards and your ray bans. Splash the pot every time you bet. I'll be happy to take your money.

[SossMan]

the fact that you think this:

...is to play your hand the same way every time. Do not just shove your chips in the pot and sit back with your arms folded, grinning. Always take the same amount of time whether you muck or play the hand. Self control is very important.


is the "most important thing in NL tournaments" is pretty laughable.

Anything to do with "tells" or "playing the player, not the cards" or any of the other bullsh!t that semi-beginners-turned-tournament-experts spout aren't in the top 10 of "important things in NL tourneys" much less the most important thing.

[SossMan]

oh, and I wear my baseball cap regular, and I have non-perscription glasses (no tint) to make it easier for you to see my soul.

oh, and if you need some money, I work at a bank, I'm sure we can work something out...how's your credit?

[Murdz]

[ QUOTE ]
Anything to do with "tells" or "playing the player, not the cards" or any of the other bullsh!t that semi-beginners-turned-tournament-experts spout aren't in the top 10 of "important things in NL tourneys" much less the most important thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I have never professed to be a tournament expert.

Second, I actually have a job, so I really don't want to get into this but do you ever play live?

What can be more important than playing your hand the same way every time?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Second, I actually have a job, so I really don't want to get into this but do you ever play live?


[/ QUOTE ]

I only play live.

[ QUOTE ]
What can be more important than playing your hand the same way every time?

[/ QUOTE ]

here's the short list
chipEV vs. $EV
+EV vs. survival
overlay
payout structure
stack size
big stack play
small stack play
medium stack play
playing vs. Small/Med/Big stacks
PC’d
Preflop decisions
Stack/Blind ratio
All in or fold mode
bubble play
satellite considerations
Your image
opponents image
opponents skill level vs. your skill level
vs. good players
vs. bad players
vs. clueless players
vs. weak players
Levels of thinking
tells / betting patterns
rebuys/add-ons
gap theory
small pairs
medium pairs
big pairs
AK decisions
Standardizing raises
pot odds
implied odds
deep vs. shallow stacks
playing garbage in multiway pots
# of opponents and how it changes your play
isolation raises
smooth calling
trapping
being suited
all in prices
general pregame strategy (why it’s a bad idea)
position, position, position
stealing blinds
restealing blind steals / blind defense
table texture – tight, loose, passive, aggressive

[Murdz]

You are the smart ass who made a comment about seeing into the player's souls when I said no such thing. However, on your extensive list of the 500 most important things in a NL touney, you post the following:

[ QUOTE ]
Your image
opponents image
opponents skill level vs. your skill level
vs. good players
vs. bad players
vs. clueless players
vs. weak players
Levels of thinking
tells / betting patterns

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you determine if you are up against a good player, a bad player, a clueless player; etc. In a NL tournament, it is more likely than not that you have never played with most of these players before and are only playing with them for a limited number of hands. Don't you believe that their age, dress, etc play some role in making an assesment?

Further, you list table image. You may not want to hear this, but most players including some good ones are not running through your checklist. The best way to develop a good table image is to play your hand the same way each time.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
How do you determine if you are up against a good player, a bad player, a clueless player; etc. In a NL tournament, it is more likely than not that you have never played with most of these players before and are only playing with them for a limited number of hands. Don't you believe that their age, dress, etc play some role in making an assesment?


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I've played with many of the same players that I've played before, but I have an insanely good memory, so maybe that helps me in that regard.

I've don't believe in steriotyping players based on age/dress/etc because they simply aren't very reliable. I am much more of a math based player. I do think, however, that judging players' moods is an important skill in tourneys (i.e. judging if a player is making a "ready to go home" all in bet)

[ QUOTE ]
The best way to develop a good table image is to play your hand the same way each time.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not even sure how they are related. What does the way you look at your cards have anything to do with table image (frequency of raises, calls, folds, cards you have shown down, etc...).
Also, you may want to define "good". does it mean you get more action or less. does it mean that you have a tight aggressive image? does it mean that you have a lag image? does it mean that people fold when you are in the pot?
please elaborate.

[snowbank]

You left off the most important one:

you didn't even mention the type of watch they are wearing.

Other than that, the list is decent.

[snowbank]

Hey smart ass, show up with your baseball hat tunred around backwards and your ray bans. Splash the pot every time you bet. I'll be happy to take your money.

You should probably quit before Sossman takes you up on your offer. He would murdzer you.

[patrick dicaprio]

i never look at my cards until it is my turn to act. this way i minimize any tells i might have.

Pat

[Jim T]

I never look at my cards at all until the action is over. I just pretend to look at them. That way I can't give off any tells at all, and I can't get sidetracked into playing my cards instead of the other people in the hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I never look at my cards at all until the action is over. I just pretend to look at them. That way I can't give off any tells at all, and I can't get sidetracked into playing my cards instead of the other people in the hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

nice.

[22suited]

good point jim, i think all these 10 and top 500 NLHE tips are getting us sidetracked. Best to ignore the cards delt and play the players.

On a side note, I watched a blind lady play a blackjack tournament with her husband whispering the cards she was delt. Anyone heard of a blind poker player?

[SoBeDude]

Once the game starts, I absolutely notice when people look at their cards. If they look at them when they are dealt, then I know they don't play live much or don't care about tells. If there is any hesitation, I know it's a bluff or if pre-flop then a crappy hand.

This is silly and wrong.

Even TJ Cloutier says in his book that he looks at his cards immediately, then spends the rest of the time looking at his opponents.

This is also the way I do it. I look at my cards one at a time as soon as they hit the felt in front of me. I know what my cards are usually before anyone else has even begun to look at theirs. So then I can spend the rest of the time watching my opponents.

And hesitation can be caused by many things, not just bluffs or crappy hands.

-Scott

[SoBeDude]

What can be more important than playing your hand the same way every time?

Playing well every time.

-Scott

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
And hesitation can be caused by many things, not just bluffs or crappy hands

[/ QUOTE ]

and if anything its usually the opposite

[Potowame]

Humor injection....


If they hesitate and say excuess me, that means they farted. I got a soild read on that one.

[SoBeDude]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And hesitation can be caused by many things, not just bluffs or crappy hands

[/ QUOTE ]

and if anything its usually the opposite

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite true. In fact, its usually the sign of a real hand and the player is deciding how to play it.

[otnemem]

[ QUOTE ]
You left off the most important one:

you didn't even mention the type of watch they are wearing.

Other than that, the list is decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually find that mixing up your watch fashion can really throw your opponents for a loop. When I want my opponents to think I'm a high rolling maniac, I wear my Tag. When I want them to think I'm a solid, mathematical player, I strap on the old Casio calculator watch. Works every time.