Did I get too scared?

[Womble]

I am in CO with Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, I call, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks

Flop Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif
SB bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, I call

Turn 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif
SB bets, BB calls, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, I raise, SB calls, BB folds, MP3 calls (all in),

River 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
SB bets, I call

Now, On the flop I feared flush as there were lots of opponenets draws and a raise was not going to get rid of anyone.

Turn, safe card so I raise. River, player bets into a turn raiser, has that given him 2pair??? I called.

Did I chicken out on this one?

[meep_42]

Looks fine to me.

-d

[tiltaholic]

looks fine.
in my current mental state, i'm folding QJo in CO. primarily for reasons like this hand.
when i flop top pair against a large passive field, i am unsure how to proceed.
thinking about it some more, i agree, you won't clear anyone one with a flop raise, but you have a chance of getting a free turn card and getting to a cheap showdown. and, SB might 3-bet and force more people out (and give you a clue you are way behind)

so, i dunno. i hate QJo.

[davelin]

I'd raise the flop, am I wrong?

[jrz1972]

I raise the flop too.

[Hashiell_Dammett]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise the flop, am I wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you.
Barring any reliable reads of SB as a super tight player that won't bet the flop with anything less than TPTK, I think you have to raise here. There are too many possible benefits to raising.

-There was no raise PF so I have to think that I'm ahead at the moment and a raise will give me a better idea of whether or not I really am ahead at the moment.

-Make the drawing hands pay when you have position. Whatever falls on the turn or river, you will have a good idea of whether or not it helped anyone before you put anymore $ in the pot. You may even get a free card. Although I would bet again on the turn if it were checked to me and I was not reraised on the flop (unless the turn is a scare card).

-If SB 3-bets it will do one of 2 things:
a.) It will drive 1 or 2 the hands between you.
b.) It won't drive anyone out and you can call one more small bet to a pot with 23 small bets in already.
I don't mind either scenerio.

Maybe that's just me
-Hash

[Womble]

[ QUOTE ]
-Make the drawing hands pay when you have position. Whatever falls on the turn or river, you will have a good idea of whether or not it helped anyone before you put anymore $ in the pot. You may even get a free card. Although I would bet again on the turn if it were checked to me and I was not reraised on the flop (unless the turn is a scare card).
-Hash

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about making drawing hands pay, but it was highly likely that a drawing hand was out there and another /images/graemlins/diamond.gif would lose it for me. Didnt want to build a pot only to lose to a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Also I was able to raise the turn and make the drawing hands pay more through a BB raise. If I raised the flop it probably would have checked to me. Happens alot unless someone gets a monster on the turn.

I won the hand, the bettor could not stop loving his pocket 8s

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-Make the drawing hands pay when you have position. Whatever falls on the turn or river, you will have a good idea of whether or not it helped anyone before you put anymore $ in the pot. You may even get a free card. Although I would bet again on the turn if it were checked to me and I was not reraised on the flop (unless the turn is a scare card).
-Hash

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree about making drawing hands pay, but it was highly likely that a drawing hand was out there and another /images/graemlins/diamond.gif would lose it for me. Didnt want to build a pot only to lose to a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's weak-tight thinking.

[wcsherry]

i'm raising this flop too.

[Womble]

Does everyone raise top pair average kicker hands here? Is it a thing that is generally more right than wrong?

Im trying to get out of my weak tight thinking by becoming more agressive. Its a slow process but I think its coming along. Just need to stop expecting the worst all the time

[DeathDonkey]

This is a perfect spot to wait and raise the turn. These people are wrong. You played it great. Not raising the flop doesn't mean weak tight. There are reasons for every bet and raise and people need to quit with this "I have top pair so I'm going to be aggressive and raise" when this is just a bad spot for it.

Now quit folding overpairs and your gold! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[Shillx]

DeathDonkey plays good. Nice post. Raising the flop is almost certainly not as good as calling and raising a turn blank.

Brad

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a perfect spot to wait and raise the turn. These people are wrong. You played it great. Not raising the flop doesn't mean weak tight. There are reasons for every bet and raise and people need to quit with this "I have top pair so I'm going to be aggressive and raise" when this is just a bad spot for it.

Now quit folding overpairs and your gold! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Not disagreeing but why is waiting the turn better? If Hero had AQ or KQ would you advocate a wait til turn raise?

[Shillx]

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm only raising this flop with a really strong hand like AA, top 2 or a set. I'm waiting until the turn with any form of top pair.

Brad

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno about anyone else, but I'm only raising this flop with a really strong hand like AA, top 2 or a set. I'm waiting until the turn with any form of top pair.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting. I'll look out for this more.

[Womble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a perfect spot to wait and raise the turn. These people are wrong. You played it great. Not raising the flop doesn't mean weak tight. There are reasons for every bet and raise and people need to quit with this "I have top pair so I'm going to be aggressive and raise" when this is just a bad spot for it.

Now quit folding overpairs and your gold! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Not disagreeing but why is waiting the turn better? If Hero had AQ or KQ would you advocate a wait til turn raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen the light. I am scared of the flush draw and there are lots of people. I am highly likely the best hand on the flop but that could all change on the turn, my edge could increase slightly or decrease LOADS if a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif comes.

By waiting for the turn, I lose less when a scare card comes and people start raising at me. But I gain alot more when I can raise in LP and trap the whole field for 2 SB, better then the 1 SB on the flop.

Also, people have a habit of checking to the raiser unless they have smething good so I probably would have only got 1BB out of the field on the turn instead of 2

PS You obviously read my KK hand /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[davelin]

Sounds good. I guess the question is what happens when a scare card comes and you have an EP bettor and callers in between?

[DeathDonkey]

Note that I would have raised both these hands preflop so I wouldn't be in this situation. That said I would be more inclined to raise the flop with top kicker (in general) as I fear less turn cards. That also said QJo is a marginal hand and this is a marginal flop. Waiting until the turn is better because alot of times a goofy card will come on the turn and it will go bet, raise, and you have an easy fold, or the same guy bets and you do what happened here and then take a free showdown if you don't like the board. Or sometimes its checked to you anyway and then you can do whatever you want. Your equity is alot higher on the turn when a safe card hits so that's when you get your money in with the best hand. It's really a tough thing to figure out and I'm still working on it. But if you limped preflop, and don't even love your hand on the flop but feel it may be best, those are some signs it may be a good wait until the turn scenario.

-DeathDonkey

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
Note that I would have raised both these hands preflop so I wouldn't be in this situation. That said I would be more inclined to raise the flop with top kicker (in general) as I fear less turn cards. That also said QJo is a marginal hand and this is a marginal flop. Waiting until the turn is better because alot of times a goofy card will come on the turn and it will go bet, raise, and you have an easy fold, or the same guy bets and you do what happened here and then take a free showdown if you don't like the board. Or sometimes its checked to you anyway and then you can do whatever you want. Your equity is alot higher on the turn when a safe card hits so that's when you get your money in with the best hand. It's really a tough thing to figure out and I'm still working on it. But if you limped preflop, and don't even love your hand on the flop but feel it may be best, those are some signs it may be a good wait until the turn scenario.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Curiously how does raising AQ or KQ change if the same number of people are going to the flop (conceivable being in late position) and the flop action is the same?

[Joe B.]

just curious ,, what the reason of doing a raise on the turn?

you only had a pair of queens and SB raise on the turn..

wont it be better to fold?

[Womble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Note that I would have raised both these hands preflop so I wouldn't be in this situation. That said I would be more inclined to raise the flop with top kicker (in general) as I fear less turn cards. That also said QJo is a marginal hand and this is a marginal flop. Waiting until the turn is better because alot of times a goofy card will come on the turn and it will go bet, raise, and you have an easy fold, or the same guy bets and you do what happened here and then take a free showdown if you don't like the board. Or sometimes its checked to you anyway and then you can do whatever you want. Your equity is alot higher on the turn when a safe card hits so that's when you get your money in with the best hand. It's really a tough thing to figure out and I'm still working on it. But if you limped preflop, and don't even love your hand on the flop but feel it may be best, those are some signs it may be a good wait until the turn scenario.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Curiously how does raising AQ or KQ change if the same number of people are going to the flop (conceivable being in late position) and the flop action is the same?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see that it changes the situation slightly but I would still wait until the turn now. You scared of someone else with a Q, also if an overcard to the Q falls you could get 2 pair and trap a better who thinks hes good.

The flush is the scary thing since there are so many players. If there were 2-(3) opponents then raising the flop would probably be better.

[DeathDonkey]

It really doesn't. Maybe AQ I would just raise, but I doubt it. The thing is, the flop action would rarely be the same for me. They always check to me when I raise preflop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[davelin]

[ QUOTE ]
It really doesn't. Maybe AQ I would just raise, but I doubt it. The thing is, the flop action would rarely be the same for me. They always check to me when I raise preflop /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

They rarely offer me the same courtesy /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Hashiell_Dammett]

I just got back to this thread from yesterday and I have to respond to this one.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a perfect spot to wait and raise the turn. These people are wrong. You played it great. Not raising the flop doesn't mean weak tight. There are reasons for every bet and raise and people need to quit with this "I have top pair so I'm going to be aggressive and raise" when this is just a bad spot for it.

Now quit folding overpairs and your gold! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

Not disagreeing but why is waiting the turn better? If Hero had AQ or KQ would you advocate a wait til turn raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have seen the light. I am scared of the flush draw and there are lots of people. I am highly likely the best hand on the flop but that could all change on the turn, my edge could increase slightly or decrease LOADS if a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif comes.



By waiting for the turn, I lose less when a scare card comes and people start raising at me. But I gain alot more when I can raise in LP and trap the whole field for 2 SB, better then the 1 SB on the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]
You are not losing less by waiting for the turn to raise. You are losing more. There are all sorts of scenerios where "saving a raise for the turn" can backfire on you. If there's a flush draw out there, he's not going to fold until he sees both the turn and the river. So even though the turn is not a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif it doesn't mean you're in the clear. Your pair may not even be any good as SB was allowed to limp PF and could have just about anything.
What if you raise the turn when it's a blank but then a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif hits on the river?
What if an A,K or 8 falls on the river and MP3 suddenly comes alive with a bet/raise?
What if SB 3-bets your turn raise?

Personally, I would be curious to know if my pair/kicker was any good before I start worrying about a flush draw that may or may not exist and may or may not hit. The flop is definitely the better opportunity to find this out:
A) It's cheaper
B) You have 4 passive callers between you and the lead bettor who are going to supplement your small investment.
C) Raising the flop doesn't marry you to the hand if you're not thrilled with the turn and there's a lot of action in front of you. However, raising the turn is going to marry you to the hand if you're not thrilled with the river and the lead bettor bets into you.

The whole concept of "saving a raise for the turn" leaves a bad tast in my mouth. It sounds an awful lot like slowplaying a hand that's good but not great - and that sounds like a terrible idea. I think I'm going to "save" all my raises for when I have the absolute nuts.

I think that "saving a raise for the turn" probably falls under the category of outclevering yourself. This is microlimit where ABC play works the best. In a nutshell: If you suspect you have the best hand, then raise (especially with position) and don't stop until you suspect that you no longer have the best hand, i.e. a scare card hits and/or you meet stong resistence.
But cross those bridges when you get there.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, people have a habit of checking to the raiser unless they have smething good so I probably would have only got 1BB out of the field on the turn instead of 2


[/ QUOTE ]
This is totally a good thing. The 2/images/graemlins/club.gif on the turn did not really help you - it just didn't hurt you because it probably helped nobody. The turn is where lose/passive players do the most folding. If raising the flop primes more people to check fold when unimproved on the turn, then that's great news for you. You don't want to trap a bunch of people into seeing the river with a very fragile pair. The more people that fold the turn, the better.

I read you KK hand too and I think you need to add a little more aggression to your game. Don't be tight passive. Aggression may cost you an extra bet or two when you get outdrawn but passive play only increases the chances that you WILL get outdrawn. No one will ever back down from your fierce calling.