KQo on the Button / Party 15/30

[IndieMatty]

How do you like my line?

Feel free to comment on calling two cold with kqo instead of 3 betting or folding. (I felt like just calling-that's my only rationale for that.)

UTG is tricky weird, borderline good?. Other players involved are rare calling stations. Don't get too out of line.

UTG Raises, MP1 Cold Calls, MP2 Cold Calls, I have KQo on the button and flat call. SB folds. BB Calls. We go 5 large to the flop of.

7 K 2 suits as unimportant as my .50/1.00 winrate.

BB checks, UTG Bets, MP calls, MP1 Calls, Hero Raises.

BB folds. UTG 3 - Bets, MP folds, MP1 Calls. Hero Calls.


Turn is another duck. Putting a 2 flush on there.

UTG hesitates and bets. MP1 Calls. I think and raise.

UTG calls, and MP1 Calls.

River is a blank, an 8 or so. UTG Checks, MP1 Insta-Folds (love it) , and I check.

Thoughts?

[Fat Nicky]

besides pre-flop, which you already realize, I think raising the turn was a bit reckless. At most, I would just call this down.

I would like to know your rationale for the turn raise.

[IndieMatty]

Before I get into the turn.. I probablyshould fold, even though I have 4-5 going to the flop with position.. but lately I have been calling with less then optimal hands on the button in these multiway suckfests.

[Fat Nicky]

Yes, this is an automatic fold pre-flop, but I figured you knew this based on your comment in your original thread

[PokerBob]

Dump this PF. Bet the river.

[chief444]

Don't you think he's overplayed TPQK enough already?

[AviD]

I don't like the preflop call given an UTG raise and 2 cold callers that don't get too out of line.

Turn raise is good, seems like an easy value bet on the river as there are a ton of hands UTG would play this way that you beat and fewer (reasonable raising hands UTG PF) that may be played this way by a tricky opponent and beat you (AA/AK/88/KK).

[IndieMatty]

I hereby attest that the 15/30 game is more about position then Math. KQo is not an automatic dump if the right players are involved.

I usually do dump this, FWIW.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't you think he's overplayed TPQK enough already?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but he's in this far...... I know he's staring at AK. Maybe you're right. I just bet here, cuz sometimes they muck it.

[chief444]

I don't see TPTK or another KQ mucking here.

I do like the turn raise with the 3-way pot.

I guess the river bet is probably close but I just can't imagine many worse hands that the opponent would play this way. Then again, I don't play party 15/30.

[IndieMatty]

My rationale for the turn raise was that, I am not sure I am beat so we all know I am calling down. I mean, if his hand is that strong, why would he face the field with a 3 bet, knowing that I like my hand a lot on a drawless board?

To me, against this player, a flop raise on a drawless means, he's trying to scare me off, he's trying to take control of the hand.

So It's 2 More Big Bets to showdown. Once I saw MP staying in, I figured him for some sort of funky draw or some ace. Once the pair up on the board happened, I figured I'd able to extract the extra bet from him, and safely be able go to showdown cheaply or bet if I improved. If I did have the winner, I'd be able to win 4 bets as opposed to 3 if MP misses his draw.

Only thing UTG is going to 3 bet me on is KK/88 which he wouldn't have 3 bet the flop with.

That's my rationale...discuss.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
My rationale for the turn raise was that, I am not sure I am beat so we all know I am calling down. I mean, if his hand is that strong, why would he face the field with a 3 bet, knowing that I like my hand a lot on a drawless board?

To me, against this player, a flop raise on a drawless means, he's trying to scare me off, he's trying to take control of the hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is very sound thinking. However, I think we overemphasize this a little too much. I am guilty of this too. The fact is, that most players, good and bad, will in fact 3-bet their strong hands on the flop, especially against 3 or more players.

At the same time, I found your rationale for the turn raise interesting and it does make a lot of sense, especially since you could take advantage of a cheap showdown.

Also, I assume you will fold the turn if you are 3-bet.

Whether you get the free showdown or get 3-bet, you lose the same amount.

[IndieMatty]

Results:

Villian had TT. This is probably the least important results I have ever posted. After I won the hand, I wanted to throw my turn re-raise out there to see if it had any validity.

No one openly mocked me (at least in this thread) so it appears it was ok.

Thanks for the replies.

[PokerBob]

I am wondering how shocked UTG was when he saw your hand. I doubt he had you on AK, as he would expect a 3-bet pf from such a hand. I doubt he had you on KQo, as that is usually a muck against an UTG raise. He probably didn't give you credit for JJ-AA, as a 3-bet pf also would have been standard. What could he have had you on? AQ? 99? JTs? This hand gets more interesting and deep the more I think about it.

[IndieMatty]

Probably not too shocked. This is a fairly standard (and probably incorrect call) at this game. I was feeling lucky and had the button. Also, I am far from a "rock". I do stupid [censored] all the time. His line wasn't bad IMO, it would have been interesting to see if he called a river bet. I'm almost certain now he would have.