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View Full Version : too tight early in STT?


schwza
01-11-2005, 11:21 AM
50+5 STT at party. first hand of the tournament, 10/15, everyone has 1000.

i am in the BB with AQo. 4 limpers, SB completes, i check.

flop is A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (pot = 90)

SB checks, i check, 1 limper checks, MP limper bets 110, and it's folded to me. i fold.

is this overly tight? i figured with 5 others seeing the flop, the odds were not great that i was ahead, and i was either going to win a small one or lose my stack. also the slight overbet made it more difficult to make a play like c/r'ing the flop and plan on folding to a 3bet.

edited to say: i did not have a backdoor flush draw.

Shajen
01-11-2005, 11:23 AM
yes

vindikation
01-11-2005, 12:27 PM
I would call, if another Ace or a Queen falls without another /images/graemlins/heart.gif you might be able to take down the pot. Then again with all of the limpers you might be up against a set or 2 pair already. I'd at least see the turn though.

schwza
01-11-2005, 12:28 PM
[ QUOTE ]
yes

[/ QUOTE ]

and so your line instead would be....

schwza
01-11-2005, 12:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would call, if another Ace or a Queen falls without another /images/graemlins/heart.gif you might be able to take down the pot. Then again with all of the limpers you might be up against a set or 2 pair already. I'd at least see the turn though.

[/ QUOTE ]

my problem with check-calling was that i would still have no idea where i stood on the turn. if it's a brick (or an ace), i don't know if i'm up against AK/AJ/A8, or against AT/A9. or a semi-bluff that's continuing.

i also feared a c/r behind me. i really didn't like my line, but i still can't think of one that i like better.

El Maximo
01-11-2005, 12:42 PM
Why not make a 3/4 to pot-size bet on the flop? If you get played back at you can go from there. I want to charge any draws and I want to get some info on where Im at. If I take down the pot than so be it.

Unarmed
01-11-2005, 12:42 PM
I fold this as well schwaza, there's a good chance you get C/R here and even when you do you can't be sure its the heart draw because the EP players could have been sandbagging to the PF raiser so they could hang him when he autobets.

You decided to play the AQ for two-pair value PF. Don't go changing your mind just because the ace flopped.

That said, I raise this PF. I know you don't want to play a big pot out of position with AQ but by not raising here you're turning your AQo into 75o. Multi-way flops are not kind to TP2K, as you know, but you did this to yourself by not raising PF.

EDIT: BTW, is this your line PF at ring NL as well or just SNGs to reduce variance? I know you're 100x better at NL than I am so perhaps my thinking is flawed.

Stupendous_Man
01-11-2005, 12:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
50+5 STT at party. first hand of the tournament, 10/15, everyone has 1000.

i am in the BB with AQo. 4 limpers, SB completes, i check.

flop is A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif (pot = 90)

SB checks, i check, 1 limper checks, MP limper bets 110, and it's folded to me. i fold.

is this overly tight? i figured with 5 others seeing the flop, the odds were not great that i was ahead, and i was either going to win a small one or lose my stack. also the slight overbet made it more difficult to make a play like c/r'ing the flop and plan on folding to a 3bet.

edited to say: i did not have a backdoor flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]


Why wouldn't you lead out with a bet on the flop? [ QUOTE ]
i figured with 5 others seeing the flop, the odds were not great that i was ahead

[/ QUOTE ] With top pair of A's and Q kicker, you're not behind too many hands on the flop. Obviously, there are lots of draws out there. With no PFRs, I'm discounting the likelihood of AA, AK, and JJ, which would make me want to lead out. I wouldn't go nuts like some people like to do, but I wouldn't play it this weak.

vindikation
01-11-2005, 12:45 PM
Yeah I kind of thought of that after I made the post, you don't really know where you stand by calling.

If you raise his 110, then you'll find out where you are if anyone else calls. But then on the turn you're basically comitted to betting regardless of the card.

Damn I can see a case for calling, raising and folding. I'd still just call. Then again I only play $10+1 SnG's so I don't know anything about the $50's.

A preflop raise seems like the best advice.

Stupendous_Man
01-11-2005, 12:51 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Damn I can see a case for calling, raising and folding.

[/ QUOTE ]


Would you not have lead out with the betting and make the other player question what you have? If you keep this line (checking), then I think there's only a case for folding or raising. I don't think calling gains you any knowledge, IMO.

vindikation
01-11-2005, 12:54 PM
Following the line of logic of NOT raising preflop, then I see your point, and agree with you that Raising or Folding are the 2 best options.

Damn I learn a lot on this forum!

Unarmed
01-11-2005, 01:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Would you not have lead out with the betting and make the other player question what you have? If you keep this line (checking), then I think there's only a case for folding or raising. I don't think calling gains you any knowledge, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting out gives you nothing either. Assume there's another ace out there and Schwza leads from the BB. A typical opponent isn't going to put him on the ace and will raise a good percentage of the time with his Ax, two-pair or not. The board is flushed so you have no idea whether you're up against a set, two-pair, or an ace hand you have crushed.

Stupendous_Man
01-11-2005, 01:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Would you not have lead out with the betting and make the other player question what you have? If you keep this line (checking), then I think there's only a case for folding or raising. I don't think calling gains you any knowledge, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting out gives you nothing either. Assume there's another ace out there and Schwza leads from the BB. A typical opponent isn't going to put him on the ace and will raise a good percentage of the time with his Ax, two-pair or not. The board is flushed so you have no idea whether you're up against a set, two-pair, or an ace hand you have crushed.

[/ QUOTE ]


I like your other post and also believe that raising preflop is the better line. With this line, I think it opens questions you don't want to be faced with.

Shajen
01-11-2005, 01:10 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes

[/ QUOTE ]

and so your line instead would be....

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have not limped preflop.

I would have also probably raised on the flop...my thinking is there aren't too many hands you are behind, and since you raised preflop, you hopefully will be rid of the any two suited players on a draw. If not, then you make them pay for their draw.

A lot of people seem to like to play Ax, so you may be in trouble if they paired their low card, but they'll let you know. Trips is a possibility (I'd say the villian doesn't have this, as slow playing trips is the rage)...as well as the flush draw of course.

On the turn, if it doesn't help a flush draw, I'd bet out again. If called, fine, if re-raised, it's time to lay it down.

You are right though, lots of options. Raising preflop is a must though I believe.

Good luck.

Awesemo
01-11-2005, 01:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
is this overly tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I think you played this hand perfectly. Raising out of the BB with AQ is setup for disaster. You absolutely do not want to play a big pot at this stage with AQ (I've made that mistake and it has cost me). On the flop, I would probably check/call normally. However, when the MP bets 110, that commits too much of your stack to make any play, since it fairly likely that you are already beaten. Thus, you must fold.

schwza
01-11-2005, 01:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: BTW, is this your line PF at ring NL as well or just SNGs to reduce variance?

[/ QUOTE ]

i play almost no full ring NL. 6-max i'll raise it if there's a loose limper who will call with a dominated hand, but my default play is to check there also. i'd also raise if there were limpers in who liked to limp with marginal hands like 58s in position but are willing to fold to a raise (like me).

adanthar
01-11-2005, 01:52 PM
I am checking this in the BB, solely because I'm out of position with too many limpers.

But I bet this flop 100% of the time, and on the odd chance that I don't, I call here and CR his usually much smaller bet on the turn as long as it isn't a heart.

raptor517
01-11-2005, 02:07 PM
no, thats not playing too tight. ignore all those other naysayers

AleoMagus
01-11-2005, 02:40 PM
I think...

Raising out of position (preflop) is a very bad idea. I might push a hand like this against limpers later in the tourney, but at this stage, you have to check.

Betting the flop is the right play. Charge the draws, and with the pot as small as it is you will still be able to get away from a raise.

Once you have checked, you have put yourself in a tricky spot. This is a tough call to make confidently. You know that you aren't against AK, but AJ, a hearts draw, or even a set are all possibilities. You could also be up against something like AT or Ax. I think that you are ahead here, but you are also starting to look at a big hand if you call and you don't have much to go on. I think if you do play this, you need to either put in a big raise now, or take the lead if the turn is blank.

I suppose the fold might be the right play once you have checked. The check is very weak though, and I think the BIG mistake here is not making a pot sized bet on this flop. Folding after that check is safe and I guess it just costs you your BB and a missed opportunity.

Regards
Brad S

schwza
01-11-2005, 03:53 PM
ok, looks like there's a decent consensus on the right line: check pre-flop, bet the flop.

say i bet 80 into the T90 pot, it's folded to a MP limper, who makes it 240. button and SB fold to me. now what?

AleoMagus
01-11-2005, 04:19 PM
[ QUOTE ]
say i bet 80 into the T90 pot, it's folded to a MP limper, who makes it 240. button and SB fold to me. now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

then... I fold

Regards
Brad S

ericlambi
01-11-2005, 04:32 PM
Why did you check? You should bet this flop 100% of the time, at least the pot, probably a little more.

Folding was a bad move. You should have called or raised, preferably raise.

schwza
01-11-2005, 05:25 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
say i bet 80 into the T90 pot, it's folded to a MP limper, who makes it 240. button and SB fold to me. now what?

[/ QUOTE ]

then... I fold

Regards
Brad S

[/ QUOTE ]

cool... thanks a lot for the feedback.

vindikation
01-11-2005, 09:33 PM
Well I just got this hand in the BB A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Nine people in the $10 SnG $15/$30 blinds. So I tried to play it like a lot of people here said.

4 people limped in and I raised to $100.

2 middle guys fold and the button calls.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet $150, button calls

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet $250, button calls

River: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, button goes All In, I fold and lose a majority of my stack.

Not exactly the same hand, but this shows how I got in trouble raising and betting in the BB. How would you have played this hand? (I probably should have checked on the Turn and folded to a bet)

david050173
01-11-2005, 11:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well I just got this hand in the BB A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif Nine people in the $10 SnG $15/$30 blinds. So I tried to play it like a lot of people here said.

4 people limped in and I raised to $100.

2 middle guys fold and the button calls.

Flop: Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif K/images/graemlins/spade.gif 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet $150, button calls

Turn: 4/images/graemlins/club.gif

I bet $250, button calls

River: 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check, button goes All In, I fold and lose a majority of my stack.

Not exactly the same hand, but this shows how I got in trouble raising and betting in the BB. How would you have played this hand? (I probably should have checked on the Turn and folded to a bet)

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to raise at least the pot preflop. A 3xBB bet when the pot is 5xBB isn't going to get everyone to fold. If you think you don't want to risk that many chips at this point with AQs, you can limp and hope you get a good flop. Just remember that in an unraised,multiways pot you have to be very carefull ( 2 pair, small trips, and every straight/flush draw imaginable).

You got a hideous flop ( you have 2nd pair with a flush and straight already out there) and pretty much no redraws. Montone flops are hard to play at since you can end up bluffing into the nuts (or a made flush) way too often. Early in the SNG, I would write off my losses.

AleoMagus
01-12-2005, 01:54 AM
You raised preflop out of position, which some did recommend, but which is wrong in my opinion. In fact, I think it's pretty clear cut this early in the SNG. It's a very bad idea.

On the flop, you have nothing like the previous example. You have second pair, with a three flush and straight possibilities on the board. This is a check/fold hand.

AQ and even AQs are highly overrated hands in the early rounds of a SNG. You really need to have position to play these hands, if you play them at all.

Regards
Brad S

Unarmed
01-12-2005, 09:27 AM
Alright, I seem to have the complete opposite line than some very respected posters. You're in the BB/SB, how many limpers before you DON'T raise AQ PF here? Assume you don't raise PF, and an A or Q falls with a non-connected/two-pair board, are you leading into any number of opponents?

General questions.... I know...

schwah
01-12-2005, 01:37 PM
if you think you are probably behind, then calling the flop is horrible

ilya
01-12-2005, 02:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Betting the flop is the right play. Charge the draws, and with the pot as small as it is you will still be able to get away from a raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

The thing I really like about this line is that it makes your decision pretty easy compared to checking & facing a bet from one of the limpers.

On the other hand...is this line actually +EV over check/folding? And if it is with this many limpers, how many more limpers must there be before the balance swings the other way?

AleoMagus
01-12-2005, 02:22 PM
I would not raise AQ from the blinds on level 1 with any number of limpers.

I would lead out with a roughly pot sized bet if an A or Q falls (when Q is top pair) against any number of opponents that I'd usually see. I suppose if I had all 9 opponents in the pot, I might have to think about this, but more likely it's only going to be 2-5 opponents and I have to think my top pair is good. If I am played back at, then it's easy to let go of and still doesn't cost me nearly as much as if I had raised preflop.

And don't get me wrong, I do believe that AQ is the best hand preflop (or a very small underdog to a pair) about 99% of the time. It is for this reason that if the same hand was played on level 4 or 5, I'd probably push it against limpers. On level 1 however, you can't push this just to win a bunch of 15 chip bets. So, a smaller raise might still bring even a few callers, and after that, you are totally out of position and it's easy to get outplayed. In NL, position is as important as cards.

I'd sooner raise J9s from the button here than AQ from the blinds (though I'm not doing that either).

Anyone else do this differently? This is standard isn't it?

Regards
Brad S

AleoMagus
01-12-2005, 02:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...is this line actually +EV over check/folding? And if it is with this many limpers, how many more limpers must there be before the balance swings the other way?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it must be. You can't check/fold a hand like this all the way. What if you check and everyone checks behind? Do you lead out on the turn? What if the three flush comes on the turn?

If you actually are beat, it's got to be a big hand (Two pair, set, or slowplayed AK) so I'd rather make the bet on the flop and get some info after that. If you really are beat already, you could easily get a raise and it's not hard to get away from.

I also think that it's important to bet it while it is still best. The last thing I want is Mr J4o to spike a second J or a 4 on the turn (not to mention the real draws).

That's my opinion anyways

Regards
Brad S

PS - What's a little annoying and interesting about this situation is the thought that people really might check/call AQ on this flop. I bet 2nd pair here in last position if everyone checks this flop to me. If it isn't raised preflop, and they all check that ace, I can easily see 2nd pair as good. I like the thought that I could be pushing a check/folding AQ off this pot, but I hate the idea that AQ might check/call this. This is not to say check/calling here is correct, but I think aggressive players in last position could be sad to see it nonetheless.

Unarmed
01-12-2005, 04:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]

On the other hand...is this line actually +EV over check/folding? And if it is with this many limpers, how many more limpers must there be before the balance swings the other way?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok well this is a cross post from the one I made in the prob forum, and not the exact same situation, but about as good a flop as you can ask for with AQ/AK. Clearly any two-flush/connected/paired flops makes things worse. I'm still working through this so any help people would like to offer would be great.

***************

NLHE - You have AK in the BB, x limpers to you and you check. Flop comes A-9-4, no two flush. What % of the time do you have the best hand here given x.

Assume players are limping with:

QJ 16
KJ 12
KT 12
A2 8
A3 8
A4 6
A5 8
A6 8
A7 8
A8 8
A9 6
AT 8
22 6
33 6
44 3
55 6
66 6
77 6
88 6
99 3
TT 6
23s 4
34s 3
45s 3
56s 4
67s 4
78s 4
89s 3
9Ts 3
TJs 4
Total 188

You are beat by A4, A9, 44, 99, or 18 hands. Therefore, the probablility you are beat on this flop depending on x are:
x | prob
1 0.0957
2 0.1828
3 0.2619
4 0.3337
5 0.3989
6 0.4580
7 0.5116
8 0.5602
9 0.6042

Look ok?