Question about my kill pot play

[young nut]

I was playing a game of 4/8 at the El Dorado which also had a full kill (8/16), then this hand came up on a kill pot:

Hero is in the BB with A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif

1 limper in early position and the lady posting the kill pot blind checked.

I raise from the BB

limper folds (curiously, he must have had a read on me or something)

lady on kill pot calls

Flop:

A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check in an attempt to slowplay and hopefully extract some bets. I figured this was a kill pot, so a slowplay would be more +EV because the lady on the kill button was pretty tight.

Lady on kill button bets, I just call

Turn: A /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I check, she bets, I hesitate then check-raise. She just calls. Was this a correct play here, or should I have bet out on the turn to kind of show weakness in my hand, sort of like a desperation bet.

I bet the unimportant river and she calls.

Final Pot: 9.5 BB

After I show my boat, the lady flashes the remaining ace in her hand to me. I keep trying to figure out if I got enough bets out of this hand, or if my check raise might have scared her and tightened her up. Just curious what you think of my play.

[Filet O' Fish]

How did the lady posting the kill check pre-flop before the action got to you? In kill games the "killer" usually acts last unless it's raised.

[Hermlord]

Where I play the killer acts in turn like any other hand.

I play it like you did. In my experience, at low-limit people don't respond well to a bet out on the turn here. They usually just call down from then on. Why I don't know, but that's what I always see. I guess it's an unusual enough move to put them on guard.

[vetman81]

[ QUOTE ]
Where I play the killer acts in turn like any other hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

Same here.


[ QUOTE ]
I play it like you did. In my experience, at low-limit people don't respond well to a bet out on the turn here. They usually just call down from then on. Why I don't know, but that's what I always see. I guess it's an unusual enough move to put them on guard.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree here as well. Most people at this limit are not anywhere near aggressive enough. Also, you said the lady was tight, so I would assume she is weak-tight. That being said, she will likely just call you down if you lead out. Unless you had a read on her being aggressive enough to raise your lead on the turn, then I think you made the right play.

[o0mr_bill0o]

I would have probably bet out if i knew she had the only other ace in the deck... otherwise your play is right.

[DemonDeac]

looks fine to me

[vetman81]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have probably bet out if i knew she had the only other ace in the deck...

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think that most players at this limit would be too passive to reraise you, costing you one BB if you led out the turn.

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have probably bet out if i knew she had the only other ace in the deck... otherwise your play is right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really did figure her for the other ace at the time. She seemed pretty tight, not playing anything stupid. She also only put a bet out there with a likely winning hand. So with her flop bet I was pretty certain she had an ace, or maybe two pair. But the only reason I doubted myselft was because it was a kill pot. People tend to play differently on a kill pot. So she may have been betting a weak king or mid pocket pair against me. If I knew she had the ace for sure I think I would have bet out on the turn, but the last thing I wanted to do was lose my sucker. I'm pretty sure she would have just called me down if she had a king, but she might not have raised my turn bet even if she did have the ace.

[Pov]

I agree with your turn play considering the situation at the time, but I'd like to raise a question about the flop play. Being the pre-flop raiser, isn't your check more likely to result in the tight player checking behind you? Then your quadruple-sized bet on the turn (because of the kill) is just going to fold her even more easily than the flop bet would have unless she picks up a miracle card like making her a straight or something and if you're very lucky it gives her two-pair so you can actually pick up some action. My read on the hand is that you got very lucky she had a dominated Ace or you would have recieved zero bets after the flop on this play. Maybe you can still get what you did out of a King, but your own read seems to indicate otherwise. Just my .02, I'd like to hear differing opinions.

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with your turn play considering the situation at the time, but I'd like to raise a question about the flop play. Being the pre-flop raiser, isn't your check more likely to result in the tight player checking behind you? Then your quadruple-sized bet on the turn (because of the kill) is just going to fold her even more easily than the flop bet would have unless she picks up a miracle card like making her a straight or something and if you're very lucky it gives her two-pair so you can actually pick up some action. My read on the hand is that you got very lucky she had a dominated Ace or you would have recieved zero bets after the flop on this play. Maybe you can still get what you did out of a King, but your own read seems to indicate otherwise. Just my .02, I'd like to hear differing opinions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like your thoughts on this. Although this hand presented a unique situation with this lady. She seemed like a pretty solid aggressive type of player, but most of the previous pots were large 4-8 player multi-way pots. In those pots she only bet with a good hand, but that was my only reads on her. In this kill pot, it was just me and her heads up and I figured that she might see me as tight and maybe use her aggressiveness to bet the flop to try and get me to fold. I checked because I knew for a fact that if she didn't get any peice of the flop she would fold. However, if she checked behind and maybe had some holdings by the turn I might be able to get a few bets out of her. It seems that play changes significantly in a kill pot.

Your post also brings up a good question as to how good reads still are when the hand is a kill hand. How much should your reads be adjusted when playing in a kill pot I guess is a better way to put it.

[Altaslim]

I agree with POV, I think the flop check is too often going to be checked behind to make the play profitable. If anything, you may be able to extract more bets with a c/r on the turn. I ain't no pro, but I would at least consider it.

[Altaslim]

Sorry, misred the post...you did c/r on the turn. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with POV, I think the flop check is too often going to be checked behind to make the play profitable. If anything, you may be able to extract more bets with a c/r on the turn. I ain't no pro, but I would at least consider it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your opinion that a check on the flop might yield more bets may be true, but I had to evaluate the chances of her folding to my flop bet. I raised preflop from the BB, so this automatically indicated some strength to her (given that she seems like a pretty smart player) I figured with an A and a K on the flop, if I bet right out, she would be folding with anything Queens and lower, considering she was pretty tight and I indicated strength. However, if I checked the flop I might get her to come along on a turn bet with pocket pairs 8's-Q's or possibly a king if she had one. To me it just seemed like a flop bet had too much of a chance of her folding to be the correct move.

[Altaslim]

[ QUOTE ]
Your opinion that a check on the flop might yield more bets may be true, but I had to evaluate the chances of her folding to my flop bet. I raised preflop from the BB, so this automatically indicated some strength to her (given that she seems like a pretty smart player) I figured with an A and a K on the flop, if I bet right out, she would be folding with anything Queens and lower, considering she was pretty tight and I indicated strength. However, if I checked the flop I might get her to come along on a turn bet with pocket pairs 8's-Q's or possibly a king if she had one. To me it just seemed like a flop bet had too much of a chance of her folding to be the correct move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your raise from the BB could just as easily have indicated an attempt to buy the pot. I don't think either one of us is horribly wrong, and I understand your reasoning...I'm just saying I would have bet out because my experience has been that one bet at lower limits does little to drive people off their hands.

[Filet O' Fish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your opinion that a check on the flop might yield more bets may be true, but I had to evaluate the chances of her folding to my flop bet. I raised preflop from the BB, so this automatically indicated some strength to her (given that she seems like a pretty smart player) I figured with an A and a K on the flop, if I bet right out, she would be folding with anything Queens and lower, considering she was pretty tight and I indicated strength. However, if I checked the flop I might get her to come along on a turn bet with pocket pairs 8's-Q's or possibly a king if she had one. To me it just seemed like a flop bet had too much of a chance of her folding to be the correct move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your raise from the BB could just as easily have indicated an attempt to buy the pot. I don't think either one of us is horribly wrong, and I understand your reasoning...I'm just saying I would have bet out because my experience has been that one bet at lower limits does little to drive people off their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree with Atlaslim here. I have noticed that alot of people loosen up on their raising standards during a kill pot giving her the impression that you're not necessarily strong here. Also, IMO people are very willing to defend the extra money that they have contributed to the pot with their kill blind so a flop bet is more likely to be called. Not to mention by checking and calling you completely eliminate the chance of many bets going into the pot on the flop. She could have easily raised your bet on the flop giving you a chance to make it three bets. After all that money going into the pot it would be difficult for her to NOT call a subsequent turn bet especially when she improves.

[bobbyi]

[ QUOTE ]
hould I have bet out on the turn to kind of show weakness in my hand, sort of like a desperation bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Whoah! Unless you know this player well, you are giving a live 4/8 player way too much credit. In a 4/8 game, nobody views a bet when the top card on board pairs as "weakness" or "desparation". That's a much higher level than the one at which they are viewing the game. Betting might be right for other reasons (especially if she is a passive player and would check behind when this "scary" card hits), but trying to mimic a weak hand that is mimicing a strong hand is definitely not the reason in a 4/8 game. Way too many levels there.

[young nut]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your opinion that a check on the flop might yield more bets may be true, but I had to evaluate the chances of her folding to my flop bet. I raised preflop from the BB, so this automatically indicated some strength to her (given that she seems like a pretty smart player) I figured with an A and a K on the flop, if I bet right out, she would be folding with anything Queens and lower, considering she was pretty tight and I indicated strength. However, if I checked the flop I might get her to come along on a turn bet with pocket pairs 8's-Q's or possibly a king if she had one. To me it just seemed like a flop bet had too much of a chance of her folding to be the correct move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your raise from the BB could just as easily have indicated an attempt to buy the pot. I don't think either one of us is horribly wrong, and I understand your reasoning...I'm just saying I would have bet out because my experience has been that one bet at lower limits does little to drive people off their hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

My raise would seem like a strange way to buy the pot considering there was already one limper and the kill pot lady. I guess she might have taken my raise as a way to get her to fold and get it just heads up between me and the limper.

You are correct that in low limits it is usually best to just bet out. But at 8/16, twice the size of the players comfortable limit, the other players change their style of play as well. Most people don't chase as much at twice their limit nor do they call down with weak draws or middle pairs.

[River2Pair]

[ QUOTE ]
You are correct that in low limits it is usually best to just bet out. But at 8/16, twice the size of the players comfortable limit, the other players change their style of play as well. Most people don't chase as much at twice their limit nor do they call down with weak draws or middle pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

But when you know this, and the rich, drunk LAG knows this, and 6/12 kill is the biggest limit game going that day, that makes for some real fun.

In case you missed it. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=1462672 &Forum=f3&Words=morongo&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main =1462672&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange =1&newerval=2&newertype=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=#Post1462672)