I Own Fish Daddy!

[sthief09]

what'd we have?


Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with X:x:, X:x:.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds.

Final Pot: 12.25 BB

[gaming_mouse]

Good question. I think there are lots of hands you might have played this way:

44, 77, 99, AK, KQ, KT, KJ

CDC might have had anything, as your PF raise doesn't mean much given your position -- so he has odds to call with pretty much any two cards. It looks like his aggression was a bluff, but he probably had some piece of the board. I think he had a 7, 4, or 9 (or maybe another PP like 66), but did not have either a K or Q.

When you stopped after his turn 3-bet, he thought he might have one more chance to pick up the pot with a final bluff, but gave up once it was clear that plan had failed?

I'm bad at this though -- I'd like to hear more advanced reasoning.

gm

[bobdibble]

Let's see.. given my reads from various posts on the forum...

You: KQ
CDC: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Range of hands my ass... these were your holdings and it isn't even close /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[genya]

my guess is J /images/graemlins/club.gifT /images/graemlins/club.gif

[Chris Daddy Cool]

josh will give the winner 10 bucks to the person who gets it right.

[The Dude]

You may well have JT for the turned double-gutter. He's got a good number of hands possibly, but the most likely seems to be a club draw.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
CDC: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is no way he folds two pair here

[The Dude]

you beat me to it genya, but his JT certainly doesn't need to be clubs for him to take this line. In fact, since it looks like CDC had a club draw it's a little less likely hero had clubs.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
josh will give the winner 10 bucks to the person who gets it right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Send it.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
CDC: 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think there is no way he folds two pair here

[/ QUOTE ]

sthief's stop-n-go on river implies he can beat bottom 2 pair, no?

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
josh will give the winner 10 bucks to the person who gets it right.

[/ QUOTE ]
Send it.

[/ QUOTE ]


you lose

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
you beat me to it genya, but his JT certainly doesn't need to be clubs for him to take this line. In fact, since it looks like CDC had a club draw it's a little less likely hero had clubs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude,

Why does Hero raise the turn with a draw? For the equity of winning it right there in case BB was betting?

And if BB was on a flush draw, why does he 3-bet the turn? He can't think he's getting hero to fold. Does this make him more money when his draw comes in? if so, can you explain how?

[The Dude]

As best I know, CDC does not defend his BB w/ 74s, let alone 74o.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
sthief's stop-n-go on river implies he can beat bottom 2 pair, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but he is aggressive and tricky enough that you cannot safely fold it.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Why does Hero raise the turn with a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-bluff.

[ QUOTE ]
And if BB was on a flush draw, why does he 3-bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-bluff.

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
As best I know, CDC does not defend his BB w/ 74s, let alone 74o.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought 74o blind defense was quintesential CDC.. maybe I believe too much of the hype /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[sthief09]

think about the hands you're putting him on. I thought your range was pretty accurate. I thought the K was enough of a scare card that he might fold a smallish pair, and I'll charge him an extra bet for a draw. I didn't have JT, but I think it's a good spot to raise with a lot of hands.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why does Hero raise the turn with a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
And if BB was on a flush draw, why does he 3-bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
Semi-bluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since a semi-bluff has to have some chance of winning the pot right there, that means the BB must be putting Hero on a pure-bluff raise, rather than a semi-bluff raise, because a semi-bluff raise is not folding for one more. But a pure bluff is not consistent with Hero's flop play, is it?

EDIT: Wait. Sorry. Hero showed no aggression on the flop. I guess he could have been pure-bluff raising.

[edtost]

drawing to a bluff is a rarely used but powerful play, and somehow i doubt cdc is the right opponent to use it against.

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
think about the hands you're putting him on. I thought your range was pretty accurate. I thought the K was enough of a scare card that he might fold a smallish pair, and I'll charge him an extra bet for a draw. I didn't have JT, but I think it's a good spot to raise with a lot of hands.

[/ QUOTE ]


also,w hen he 3-bets the turn, what can I put him on? he's either got a monster or a draw/nothing. I just didn't think there were enough 2 pair to jusify him having something good. ok, well I didn't go through THAT deep thinking on the spot, but I had a feeling he was full of it when he 3-bet.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
but I had a feeling he was full of it when he 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

so is this feeling based primarily on your knowledge of him as a player? Eg, you have seen him 3-bet bluff before? Because that seems like a move most people don't use that often, except for maniacs, which he isn't. But I havn't played 10/20 shorthanded, so maybe I'm underestimating the aggressiveness of those games.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Since a semi-bluff has to have some chance of winning the pot right there, that means the BB must be putting Hero on a pure-bluff raise, rather than a semi-bluff raise

[/ QUOTE ]
Hero could have a hand like A9, that may very well fold to the turn 3-bet. When 2 players who know each other well play HU, the thinking goes on deeper levels than normal, so hero just calling w/ A9, or even Q9-T9 is perfectly rational.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
But I havn't played 10/20 shorthanded, so maybe I'm underestimating the aggressiveness of those games.

[/ QUOTE ]
You would be shocked to see how aggro those games are. It's crazy compare to 3-6 or 5-10 full.

[gaming_mouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Hero could have a hand like A9, that may very well fold to the turn 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay. I was assuming that he wouldn't fold that to a turn 3-bet... I guess because I figured Hero couldn't trust CDC enough to make that laydown. But that makes sense....

[bobdibble]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As best I know, CDC does not defend his BB w/ 74s, let alone 74o.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought 74o blind defense was quintesential CDC.. maybe I believe too much of the hype /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

One more thing.. for the sarcasm impared.. I was joking from the get go given CDC's reputation as a lag. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I mean, common, I even named the suits.. I couldn't have been serious.. heh... anyway.. I have a feeling that I thought this was funnier than it really is since it is so late.. heh.. oh well.

[private joker]

Heads up they could just be f[/i]ucking with each other. When 2+2ers face off in hands like this, chips get spewed. But taking the hand seriously, I might see CDC having A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, but I don't think he'd bet/fold the river -- I think he'd check-fold it because Josh wouldn't raise the turn with a hand worse than a pair of 4s. So he has to have a hand that's good enough to 3-bet the turn, but not good enough to showdown against a river raise. Potentially a PP lower than 99? 3-betting the turn would be spewery with that hand. TT and JJ I think he'd 3-bet PF. So what would CDC have that he would think Josh would call the river with a worse hand but raise with a better one? Unless the river bet was a total bluff and he thought Josh might fold a better hand -- if so, I'm back to A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif. For lack of a better idea, I'll go with that.

Josh's holding seems a bit more narrow, but I'm thinking it's pretty strong. AK at the worst, but more likely KQ or QQ. If he had QQ he's calling the flop and planning to raise the turn -- but when the turn is an overcard, he slows to the 3-bet until he hits the set on the river. If he had KQ he's catching a nice runner-runner, but I don't really buy that. JTo almost makes sense but I'm not sure he'd raise PF with it, and JTs (of crubs) is a bit too convenient for this board. I'm more inclined to think AA, KK, QQ, or AK. I don't want to say AK because he would cap the turn to charge CDC the max for getting a club. When the river was a non-club, Josh saw it safe to raise the river bet. So maybe AA and KQ are more likely than AK. He must have a strong enough hand that he would smooth-call the turn 3-bet and raise the river, making KK and QQ quite likely.

Let's give Josh QQ and CDC A/images/graemlins/club.gif 4/images/graemlins/club.gif. What's funny is how wack wrong this is going to be when the results are posted. But at least I made my donk thinking public to humiliate myself further.

[sthief09]

FWIW, this is my exact line with KQ or maybe QQ or 99, but that's not what I had. AK I wouldn't call the river. I'm not willing to make thin value raises on the river after I've been 3-bet on the turn, so that should narrow my hand down. hands with showdown value like AK, A9, JJ, and TT aren't getting raised by me on the river.

[sfwusc]

I will take a stab at it.

Hero has K7s and was on a blind steal.

CDC has clubs suited(maybe A4). The turn says scare card and he bet three bet it thinking you would cap if you had it? Cap he would have check folded a non A 4 club river

[GuyOnTilt]

F Diddy : Two cards. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Josh : KQ with a club, Q9s, AA, 99, 77, 44, JT, QQ, a busted draw bluff, in that order.

GoT

[sfer]

Fish Daddy's Daddy: KQ
Fish Daddy: 45

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

Fish Daddy got KcJc
sthief got KK

[arkady]

this is 10/20 and u guys are HU, you seriously could have any 2. One of them could easily be on a random club draw, including AcXc

[talcum]

I'm agreeing with the guy that said K7. I was thinking K9 but that would have been raised on the flop. The other guy had T /images/graemlins/club.gif8 /images/graemlins/club.gif but he folded so do we even know?

[sthief09]

we both read each other for having nothing, which make this pretty interesting. I had A2o and he had T8, for an OESD. his turn 3-bet really smelled like BS to me, and I thought a Q was a great card to play at on the river. I probably would've raised a couple of potential river cards, folded around half, and called the rest. he told me he wanted to 3-bet the river.

[arkady]

i love how some of these replies give you guts sets and 2 pair. lol! so naive.

[talcum]

That's pretty funny. Next time I'm going to wait for the results to chime in and call everyone else niave.

[MoreWineII]

[ QUOTE ]
what'd we have?



[/ QUOTE ]

Sex?