At what point do you re-evaluate your play?

[WarDekar]

I don't want to say what my current losing streak is, but here's the deal: Through my first 750-800 SNGs I was 39% ITM and 20% ROI with $20s and the last few $30s at PP. I then went on a losing streak in the $30s, moved back to the $20s. At what point do I need to re-evaluate my play and not strike up a streak to a bad run of cards? As I said I don't want to comment on what my current run is, I want responses to be unbiased as to what it is. Thanks.

[NegativeEV]

The following would (or have) cause me to critically evaluate my game or try to get some other opinions of my play:

1.) A down swing of > 20 buyins if you are playing the $22 or $33 levels as you mention.

2.) A stretch of 200 SnG's where you are at or near break even.

3.) Most important- you THINK you are playing correctly with proper SnG specific strategy, but you don't have solid confidence that you KNOW you are playing correctly. SnG strategy is simple to learn but difficult to master IMO.

GL,
-EV

[WarDekar]

Well after my stretch of ~800 $20s and $30s (almost all $20s, maybe 50 $30s at the end) I was as I said about 20% ROI. My last 186 (first 75 or so $30s then dropped back down) I'm down $833 for an ROI of -16%. During this time, I have seen my 1sts drop to almost nothing. During this time, 10 (5%) 1sts, 19 (10%) 2nds, and 33 3rds (18%) for a mere 33% ITM. The rest of my %s are: 17/17/13/12/4/2/2. FWIW, I purposely chose the last to start basically where this streak started.

I do not feel I have altered my play much, although I'm sure during this streak I have played a little worse at times purely out of frustration. It simply seems (to me) that I'm getting extremely unlucky late. For instance last night I lost several large favorites to go out in 4th when had I won it I would've had over 6,000 with 3 left. Then twice last night (once for 4th, once for 3rd) I lost to someone in the BB with AA, once when I had AKs and once 910s simply trying to steal from the SB. If anyone has any advice for me I'd appreciate it. If this continues much longer, I am going to analyze my hand histories and look at every all-in I've made during the tournament, whether it be me pushing or me calling a push.

[Scuba Chuck]

I recently went on a SHORT (in terms of time, it was perhaps 60-100 SNGs) cold streak. I too, thought it was the cards. I am too new to think (only played about 500 SNGs) that I have already learned "proper" SNG strategy. I therefore have been reconsidering my strategy. The following was my thought process, that I think helped me out of my cold streak.

SNGs are dominated by your PreFlop strategy more than any other part of the game. So these were my introspectice questions.

How loose am I playing in levels 1-3? How many hands do I play? What is my table image? How 'good' is my Folding Equity when I need it? How many times have I lost on suckouts to bigger stacks - who might not have called if I had better Folding Equity? Am I a patient player?

Then I read the following thread (This is literally just days ago). And it got me thinking. I want to reinvent my PreFlop strategy. You'll see my posts in the thread. I think minimally, this will get you back on the 'right path.'


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1507929&page=&view=&s b=5&o=

[El Maximo]

I think its tough to analyze you own play and even tougher to do while in the midst of a bad run. I'd ask some of the veterans to analyze 5-10 of your last tourneys. Or post them so you can get some comments. I also like to take a break when I hit the wall and play some other forms of poker.

[WarDekar]

Unfortunately, I definitely don't think that I can cure my streak by changing my PF strategy. I think if anything my post-flop play has been what has caused this, as sometimes I make very bad decisions to call large bets when I don't want to dump I good PF hand that is likely beat on the flop. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen to me (particularly with a nice sized PP when an overcard or especially pair hits).

[Scuba Chuck]

instrospectice = instrospective.

I'm usually a good speller. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Scuba Chuck]

WarDekar - read the thread.

Your response sounds a lot like how I was thinking...

There is not enough chips to "play" around with your postflop strategy. Therefore, get a better preflop strategy.

If you can't fold what you think is a "good hand," then make sure you have "better hands."

[WarDekar]

I also think that it's tough to analyze your own play, especially during a bad streak. FWIW I just got PokerTracker, during my last 291 SNGs (most I had on my computer in the HHs) I have profited only 80 chips through the first 5 levels on average (I have profited in all 5 levels total, although only level 5 is significant with on average 50 chips gained) and then dropped all but 1 level thereafter. I used to think my short handed play was reasonably well, I think I generally have a good feel for stealing, although I think I call other peoples' all-ins probably a bit too much. I really do believe I have lost way more than my fair shair of coinflips during this time, is there an easy way to look up such a thing in PT?

While I no longer have my tourney summaries on my computer I don't think since PT deletes them when they get imported, I'll save my next 10-20 and have them looked over if anyone would be so kind.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I definitely don't think that I can cure my streak by changing my PF strategy. I think if anything my post-flop play has been what has caused this

[/ QUOTE ]

Mistakes made pre-flop can can put you in position to make bigger mistakes post-flop. I have no idea what your problem is, of course.

If you PM me with a tournament summary, I'll certainly give you my 2 cents.

[WarDekar]

Another session tonight...25 tourneys, 3 2nds, 2 1sts, net -$170. Anyone want to look at some hand histories for me?

[lorinda]

Play a few $1 or $5 games in a game you hardly understand.

It might help you to think in terms of pure chip strategy and as you won't know what your hand is anyway, it may help focus with the timing of raises and understanding of blinds again.

I'm not saying play 1000 of those, but 2 or 3 will be a little fun and might get you looking at the basics again more readily than doing it with hands you may be currently playing instinctively incorrectly.

Just a thought.

Lori

[WarDekar]

I would try that, but I think I have a decent grasp of all the games out there. I started playing Stud8 SNGs for fun (and profit, actually quite easy from what I've seen) and am doing that the rest of the night probably since I can't handle losing my ass in $20s the rest of the night.

[WarDekar]

Although, I do enjoy Pineapple sometimes, I wish Party offered it. I wish they offered Razz as well...

[lorinda]

*Disclaimer, I have never tried this although I have intended to before.

How about a $1 with your cards covered up?

Lori

[Scuba Chuck]

I am going to be harsh.

I have decided that your problem is your attitude. It has been suggested to you, by more than one person, that your problem might be preflop strategy, and yet you decline to admit this might be a possibility. THIS IS YOUR FLAW.

[Scuba Chuck]

What a great idea! I think you could learn a lot from that.

[WarDekar]

Or...I could always go the route of below and push on EVERY hand hah. Think I'm just gonna stick with Stud8 the rest of the night, I enjoy it and I can't get too pissed off at it...especially since they're just $10 buyins...

[WarDekar]

I didn't dismiss it entirely, I just don't think that's the problem. I've been paying attention more to what I'm playing preflop, but I still don't see anything wrong with it, and it's in line with everything I've readon here about it. I do have a bad attitude a lot of times, and losing certainly doesn't help it.

A common theme the past 2 days (keep in mind my streak is running on a week and a half now) is that late with 4 or 5 handed I'm getting caught stealing way too often. I'll have an alright stealing hand, but when I get called by a blind (literally, from what I can remember, everytime it's the blind the past couple days) that has QQ, KK, or AA. Then when I get a nice PP like that late, it'll be folded to me in the blind, or everyone will fold to a raise and I can't really limp that's a bit obvious when I've been raising or folding every hand.

[The Yugoslavian]

Feel free to take a bit of time off. Then feel just as free to look over many of your HH (at random) from both your good streaks and bad streaks. Continue to feel free to discuss concepts on this forum that pop up in your mind.

Then feel free to start playing poker again with a newfound confidence and conviction.

FWIW, it sounds from your tone and such, that *now* is the time for you to start re-evaluating your play -- as much for psychological reasons as possible skill reasons.

Also, at *all* points should you be re-evaluating your play (to some degree anyway) -- but a more major re-evaulation may be in order. Hence the value in taking time off to gain some perspective.

Yugoslav

[Myst]

[ QUOTE ]
At what point do I need to re-evaluate my play and not strike up a streak to a bad run of cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should ALWAYS evaluate your play, whether you are on a HOT winning streak or a COLD losing streak. That way, you know why you are winning.

[WarDekar]

I know that, I meant re-evaluate seriously. As in "Hey, I might be a losing player for such and such a reason, I'm going to stop playing and figure it out." Maybe not exactly that, but obviously you should always be trying to improve, by re-evaluate I mean more than just improving as you play.

[WarDekar]

Played 5 $10+1 Stud8 SNGs....2 firsts, rest OTM, although one of those had I not been 4-tabling and reading the internet at the same time I most likely would've placed. I got into a battle early in a hand when I was 2nd stack, up against 1st stack. 5 were left and I didn't realize that the other 3 were all under 500 chips (I forget the ante/structure at that point, but it was rather high). By the time I realized it, the pot was way too big and I had to stay with the hand. Oh well...40% ITM (3 out of 8 place, keep in mind) with close to 50% ROI guess I can't complain...

[crunchy1]

I totally agree 'Slav.... I'm in the exact same situation as War right now.... playing good solid poker ..... but losing... Time off with a review of my hand histories over the next couple days and I'll be reinvigorated for a weekend of phish slaying!!!