Adanthar and Irieguys posts about SnG Buyins

[Jman28]

I noticed recently that at the bottom of Irie's 150 SnG New Year's challenge ( here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1457330 &Forum=,f22,&Words=&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main=145 7330&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=15228&daterang e=1&newerval=1&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bo dyprev=#Post1457330) ), you guys started to discuss a point that I think about a lot: The risk/reward of moving up in buyin levels.

I play 30s right now, and I am confident that I could beat higher levels, although I'm not sure how much I could beat them for.

The question you both discussed, and that I have thought about a whole lot, is whether it's worth it to move up because of the decreasing ROIs.

The main concern of mine is that, if I could reach the 215s, I doubt I could 8-table them, like I do with 33s.

So, assuming a solid ROI of 10% 4-tabling at 215, and an ROI of 30% 8-tabling at 33, you get:

$21.5 * 4 = $86 (four tables of 215)
$9.9 * 8 = $79 (8 tables of 33)

Add to that the fact that 30s will go faster, and you get a pretty close number for each, with MUCH more variance for 215s.

I know that the top 215 pros make a little more than this, but I just wanted to show how well you need to do at 215 to make the move worth while.

So, the question is, what is the optimal level to play at if you don't have thousands to gamble with?

Also, can 215s be successfully 8 tabled? Can 33s be 12 tabled (im gonna try soon)? Are 55s the answer?

discuss

-Jman28

[lacky]

very interesting question.

I will look at it from my perspective and situation. I currently 6 table the $109's. My ROI after 436 games is 14%. Is this number realistic long term? Who knows. 100 games ago I was at 24%, and 100 before that I was at 12%. So lets just call it what it is. For reference my ROI at $55's fluctuated around 20% with over 1200 played. BUT, I feel I play better now and some of those were played 4 tabling and others were played 7 tabling, etc. Basicly I'm saying those numbers may not relate in any rational sense.

So, 6 tabling $109's for 14% ROI and 25% rackback works out to $105 per set, with a set taking 1 hour on average, say 1:05 with a break in between sets. So $97/hour.

$33's take about 45 min per set, say 50 min with the break between sets. So to maintian the same $97 per hour I need to make $81 per set of $33's.

if I can play 8 tables I would need an ROI of 28%

if I can play 10 tables I would need an ROI of 22%

if I can play 12 tables I would need an ROI of 18%

So I guess the big question is what return you could get at $33's playing X number of tables, and how many tables can be played effectively. I can't answer those, but the idea of making close to the same amount with much smaller swings is pretty appealing after the week I had last week.

Lets here other's thoughts on this.

Steve

[SuitedSixes]

For the multi-tablers, where did you find the biggest difference (read: drop) in ROI? When you went to 2 tables? To 4? To 8? To 16? Is there a point of diminishing returns?

[lacky]

interesting question but I would be suprised if anyone the number of games at each nessesary to give a meaningful answer

[byronkincaid]

I've been trying to work this out for the past 4 months. It's gonna be different for everyone. I am embarressed to say it but I am currently down in the $20s, initially due to a short roll but I'm thinking of staying there. Varience is almost non existant so far ( very short term) I can read 2+2 while playing and all the numbers seem to be stacking up to be doing around $6k a month at 30% ROI.

I wasn't too far away from busting out from a combination of a bad run in the 50s and trying to get my money back in the 200s. ATM though I'm feeling really comfortable. Guess I'll have to change my location. /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Jman28]

I personally had the most trouble going from 1 to 4. But I think that was just because it was early in my playing career.

Going from 4-8 was tough too. I reccommend going from 4-6-8 to get used to it.

-Jman28

[jah0550]

I have a sustained ROI of ~30% in my last 500 $50 SNGs. I usually never multitable and if I do it's only one other table. How can you guys concentrate on each game? I like to play one table, because I am able to get a better "feel" for the players. Are you guys able to get a feel for each table when 4-6-8 tabling or is your play just mechanical? I am thinking about giving 4 tabling a try and was wondering what advise you guys have for me.
Thanks for your help,
Jah

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a sustained ROI of ~30% in my last 500 $50 SNGs. I usually never multitable and if I do it's only one other table. How can you guys concentrate on each game? I like to play one table, because I am able to get a better "feel" for the players. Are you guys able to get a feel for each table when 4-6-8 tabling or is your play just mechanical? I am thinking about giving 4 tabling a try and was wondering what advise you guys have for me.
Thanks for your help,
Jah

[/ QUOTE ]

It does get more mechanical for sure. Search some old posts. I know this has been discussed before. You may find some good info.

-Jman28

[byronkincaid]

I was 40% ROI on the $50s which went down to 15% 4 tabling. All too short term to make any conclusions. I think it took me hundreds of sngs to get used to 4 tabling but I am kinda slow /images/graemlins/confused.gif.

[adanthar]

Okay, some scattered thoughts in the form of a post:

I am just starting to quad table the 50's after being behind the curve for a while. FWIW, I think I could definitely beat them for 25-30% one tabling long term after working out a few kinks, and after two weeks, I think my game is probably 'just' good enough to keep a decent winning ROI 4 tabling.

Right now, I can say I probably average about 2 'what was he thinking's' per set of 4 I play. I give it another couple of weeks to get rid of those. After that...well, Playerview is a godsend because even after level 3 I generally don't have a read on anyone on at least two of the four. My laptop screen is only 1400x1050 so there's some overlap, which doesn't help.

There's certainly some tricks to it. I now see why the overwhelming advice on the boards is not limp hands like KQ in EP early; it's easy to one table your way out of these marginal situations but not so easy to four table your way out of them. My play has definitely gotten tighter and more mechanical as a result.

On the other hand, I'm running good and have made more money since the 1'st than I have for the month and a half before that, even playing subpar.

Ultimately, I think I'll be up in the $100's before too long and will probably stay there a while, starting from 2 tables and then moving to 4.

The limiting factor for me is that I'll probably never eight table. I suppose I could buy a couple of Dell flatscreens and try, but it would have to be a full time job at that point, and I'm not treating this like one just yet. Given that, quadding the 100's for 15% is probably my best bet over time.

We'll see. I'll be playing my STEP entries soon so for all I know I'll win them both and decide to six table Step 1's for cheap entries or something.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]

The question you both discussed, and that I have thought about a whole lot, is whether it's worth it to move up because of the decreasing ROIs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably.

[ QUOTE ]

So, the question is, what is the optimal level to play at if you don't have thousands to gamble with?

[/ QUOTE ]

The $33's.

[ QUOTE ]

Also, can 215s be successfully 8 tabled?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]

Can 33s be 12 tabled (im gonna try soon)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[ QUOTE ]

Are 55s the answer?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think so.

Irieguy

[raptor517]

215s are tough. period. the BEST players will put out 10% roi. Maybe 3-4 players can do 15%. maybe. you have to have a huge bankroll to handle the swings of playing the 215s. i played about 600 of them and sustained a good solid 6.34% roi. during this time i was strictly 4 tabling. i have not tried 8tabling because i would have to get a new setup on my computer. to get a good idea of true roi i think u need around 2k sngs. i have never really played the 30+3s. i dont exactly love the idea of 800 chips, but everyone seems to think that they are super great to play.

i am currently 4 tabling the 50+5s and have a 22.4% roi over the last 750 or so sngs. i do like them. they are considerably softer on the bubble than the 215s. i played only around 400 109s and had an roi of only 11.9%. i didnt really like this number a whole lot, so i stopped playing. i did have a NEGATIVE streak over a set of 100 during that time, which was rather distressing, but it balanced out.

i didnt exactly give too many answer this post, but i would like to try out the 33s, maybe get a new setup. but from what i have played, the 55s are very soft, and can easily be beaten with tight play early and agressiveness late. you really only need about 20 buyins or so at this level for an adequate bankroll.

[1C5]

I wouldn't try to tackle the 55s with only 20 buy ins....