Hand with decisions on each street Part Une

[partygirluk]

PokerStars $15 Turbo No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1540)
MP2 (t1470)
CO (t1290)
Hero (t3170)
SB (t1750)
BB (t1280)
UTG (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero ?</font>

This is an age old debate so what is my move here? Depending on how I feel, I shall either make 3 new posts or continue the and in this one. I think the river is particularly interesting.

[Unarmed]

Raise to 90 and for me this is now automatic because:

- You can take it down PF if the limpers fold.
- You can take it down on the flop if you hit an ace or queen.
- You can take it down on the flop if you whiff, have &lt;3 callers and they check to you.

If you limp here, SB completes almost 100% of the time and BB checks. Now you're five handed on the flop, and:

- You can't take it down the 2/3 of the time you whiff because you haven't taken the lead PF and you have too many opponents.
- You can easily bust yourself on an A-rag-rag flop to some cheesey two pair, and you'll never know where you're at at any point because there's always going to be a couple weirdo draws out there in addition to potential made hands that have you beat.

For this reason, in NL I will either raise or fold AQ to a field of limpers, but I will never call. Many will disagree with this I'm sure.

[partygirluk]

I agree with the consensus that a raise is the way to go.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1540)
MP2 (t1470)
CO (t1290)
Hero (t3170)
SB (t1750)
BB (t1280)
UTG (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t60, UTG calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Flop: (t330) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t20</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero?</font>

What is the best way to procede, and what is the best way in general to treat these ultra weak leads?

[adanthar]

Raise to about 250 and check behind on the turn.

[partygirluk]

Right. But what about the NL concept don't bet when getting raised will make you throw up?

And these guys are offering me pretty sensational odds to draw, why should I turn it down.

[assron]

I'd put in a small raise, which may either take down the pot or give me a discounted river card.

[adanthar]

Because you're also *good* most of the time, but whether you are or not, you want KJ/55 to fold. That second guy definitely has something of that type.

[syka16]

[ QUOTE ]
Right. But what about the NL concept don't bet when getting raised will make you throw up?



[/ QUOTE ]

You probably still have the best hand. You're slightly ahead of JJ so I don't see any problem with building the pot.

[johnnyblaze]

personally i would reraise here. you have a very nice draw to the nuts with 2 overcards. Their bet was super weak, and for all they know you could have raised preflop with pocket kings or aces. So i would probably reraise his bet of twenty to about 60 or so,, that, way you are showing strength and it will knock people out of the hand and possibly allow you to buy a free card on the turn. If your bet is reraised again i would consider what the pot odds are for you to call the bet

[partygirluk]

Reraising to 60 is pretty bad play. You are using the size of their bets as a guide to the size of your bets, when the pot size is the more relevant variable.

[eastbay]

[ QUOTE ]

What is the best way to procede, and what is the best way in general to treat these ultra weak leads?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ignore it. Treat it as a check. What would you do if he checked? Do that.

eastbay

[Myst]

Raise to 220 on the flop, check behind on turn.

[partygirluk]

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1540)
MP2 (t1470)
CO (t1290)
Hero (t3170)
SB (t1750)
BB (t1280)
UTG (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t60, UTG calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Flop: (t330) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t20</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, BB folds, UTG calls t100, MP1 calls t100.

Turn: (t690) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t20</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero?</font>

Right so I agree that raising is best on the flop. Whilst you are being offered good odds to make your flush you could have the best hand, have a strong draw, don't mind taking the pot down now and would like a free card. I raised less than most people advocated as I thought this more convingly represented a flush and wasted 100 less chips if I had to get away from the hand. I would be interested in why some of you would raise to 250.

Anyway, when I got called twice I planned of checking behind on the turn unless I hit my flush (incidentally, what do you do if you hit the flush?), but this turn made me think.

What now? I think I got this street wrong.

[avidguru]

Raise 500-700.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be interested in why some of you would raise to 250.

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it will be called.

[ericlambi]

I don't think there's anything wrong with raising, but I'd probably just call here. The pot is pretty big already and you get a pretty cheap last chance at that flush. You have the chip lead, and don't need to give it up. I am starting to suspect one of those players either already has a baby flush or has a really good hand (set) that they are too afraid to bet with 3 spades out, but that they probably won't fold without that 4th spade.

[partygirluk]

I think a check behind on the turn is best. I have a hand to show down, and want to keep the pot small. Getting checkraised all in here would really really suck, whilst I can call any reasonable river bet on any card (raising if it is a spade).

I might get action from a set or made flush, but what else. How many worse hands will call? Any J9s type hand or TT or 88 that thought it might be ahead on the flop will fold. It is hard to see any of them holding an Ace except for perhaps A9 planning to C/R all in or AxKs, but that would probably have folded preflop.

So I like taking the free(ish) card here.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I raised less than most people advocated as I thought this more convingly represented a flush and wasted 100 less chips if I had to get away from the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, for the love of God. The *last* thing your PF raise followed by a small raise represents is a flush. You really think a guy who coldcalls your raise, then bets 20 into a 300 chip pot is going to say 'well, gee, she raised to 1/3 of the pot, she must have a flush here'?

If this was the WSOP and you wanted to represent AA with the A :spade/75 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, you'd go all in/raise the pot. It's not, and you're up against idiots, so raise with the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
I would be interested in why some of you would raise to 250.

[/ QUOTE ]

So the guy in the middle folds his 55 and/or because you have the best hand and/or because you dont want the first guy to decide to put you all in on the turn on a bluff and/or...there are about a billion reasons to raise.

[ QUOTE ]
(incidentally, what do you do if you hit the flush?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Check behind, of course.

[ QUOTE ]
What now? I think I got this street wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Treat the minbet as a check. Would you bet here if he checked to you? <font color="white"> Hint: no </font>

[partygirluk]

So I bet on the turn, although in retrospect it was definitely a mistake.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1540)
MP2 (t1470)
CO (t1290)
Hero (t3170)
SB (t1750)
BB (t1280)
UTG (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t20, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t80</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls t60, UTG calls t60, MP1 calls t60.

Flop: (t330) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t20</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, BB folds, UTG calls t100, MP1 calls t100.

Turn: (t690) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t20</font>, MP1 calls t20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t200</font>, UTG folds, MP1 calls t180.

River: (t1110) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero?

[codewarrior]

I bet half the pot and push if raised.

[Cleveland Guy]

Why was betting the turn a mistake?

You likely had the best hand, and were able to get more money out of an opponent.

On this river - I would make a bet that is likely to be called, or even raised by the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I would go about 250. yes it's an underbet, but it might let him raise with his lower spade, or set. If he is going to fold for 250, he would have folded for a bigger bet anyways.

[The once and future king]

The truth is that your actions here wether right or wrong will 99% of the time have little effect on the outcome of the tournament.

If it effects the outcome more often than that you are playing it wrong.

[The once and future king]

[ QUOTE ]
You probably still have the best hand. You're slightly ahead of JJ so I don't see any problem with building the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

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