A 40/80 hand - woes of an online player in a live game

[James282]

So Saturday night I'm sitting in the Borgata 40/80 and feeling a little bored since I got moved out of an amazing must-move into an absolutely atrocious main-game. The other 2+2ers that I intended to meet up with have shown up recently and are off playing in separate games and I'm starting to look forward to a little drunken 2-4, but I decide I want to put in a few more hours just to see how I fare against this pretty tough competition.

Anyway, I'm up a lot on the day and I have received a few comments from some regulars in the game about how tight I've been playing, that they respect my raises, etc. etc. It feels like I'm finally making it into their good-ol'-boys club when I am dealt A /images/graemlins/club.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif in LMP. As usual, it's folded to me and I decide to raise because Art is in the BB and Art loves to fold his BB. Pretty much everyone between me and Art love to fold, so it seems correct.

Anyway, I raise, and Carlos says, "not this time" and calls 2 cold. It's folded to the small blind who calls, and as planned, Art folds.

The flop comes 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. It's checked to me and I bet. Carlos laughs a little and says "you better hope you get something on the turn" and the small blind folds.

The turn is the Q /images/graemlins/club.gif. I check, Carlos bets, and I raise. Carlos calls without thinking for very long. I figure he probably has a hand like KT with a club or a small pair. Or possibly a jack.

The river is the 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet, Carlos calls. I say, "I guess you want me to turn this over, huh?" and flip over my bluff. He turns over 6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and drags it. Larry, another regular in the game who I've been talking to all day says "Jesus Christ, that was a great [censored] play I can't believe he called!" and a young Asian guy(Fam? I feel like a dick if that's wrong), considered by many to be the one of the two toughest players in the high-limit games at the Borgata gives me a considering glance just long enough that I know this hand has made an impression on him. He looks away when he sees that he is giving away information.

Another hand passes when Carlos turns to me and says, "So you know, I shouldn't tell you this, but one mistake young players make is when they are bluffing, they always look for a second at the other players' chips hoping that they won't start moving towards the pot." A guy who is the weakest player in the game by far says, "What was that?" to which Carlos responds, "Nevermind, I can't explain it in English," but I understand. I just made a fantastic semi-bluff but got called down because for a split-second I gave away information to one of the few players observant enough to use it correctly. I guess I should start focusing on having some sort of routine when I play live if I plan to continue to move up.
-James

[stoxtrader]

interesting post. tx james.

[Diplomatdcm]

I was in the game ealier, and it wasn't bad but i guess it got worse. I think Carlos calls here a lot if he is stuck but not much if he is up, but i might be wrong. But still nice turn raise with how weak tight a lot of the better 40 players are. You see the 150-300 game they had going? That was a crazy game.
Dave

[AviD]

Nice post James, good reading. Was nice meeting you, although it was brief! /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[CanKid]

good read

[TStoneMBD]

good read. i didnt know of this tell. if its accurate its a hella thing to know about.

[Philuva]

I have only played with Carlos 4 or 5 times, but my experience with him is that he calls a lot here and will call down with any pair unless it is painfully ovious he is beat, i.e. he has 22 and it is a AKQJ8 board. So I would have given this one up on the turn.

[Ulysses]

A /images/graemlins/club.gif

[BottlesOf]

Great story. Perhaps you should read some Mike caro. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[Luke]

Real nice post James.

I don't have much live experience live relative to my online experience, but what I like to do when I bet and there's any sort of delay in my opponent's decision, is I just tip my head down and stare at the board or my cards.

I do my best to just keep a straight face and breath normally.

I *think* that this approach works for me but I suppose the key is to develop a plan and be consistent in how you handle these spots.

Luke

[tpir90036]

Good read.

DcifrThs and I were smashing the 20/40 against the far wall on Saturday... wish I would have known there were more 2+2-ers in the house. My friend Steve was playing in your game on Saturday... mid 20's, kind of long hair, blue jacket in the 6 seat. He ended up losing his buy-in and seemed to be running bad....if you remember him at all, any thoughts on how he played?

-tpir

[andyfox]

Not only does our hero have the Ace of clubs, as El Diablo pointed out, but does he know Carlos?

[Zeno]

Very enjoyable and informative post.

Thanks.

-Zeno

[SA125]

n/m

[Philuva]

ooops. Missed that whole club thing. Anyway, I probably would have check, called the turn and folded the river unimproved.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
Not only does our hero have the Ace of clubs, as El Diablo pointed out, but does he know Carlos?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would have assumed that if he played with him for more than an hour he could have picked that up. Plus 90% of the time time I have played in the 20-40 or higher game at the Borgata, Carlos has been in it, so I assume if James has played in AC before he has played with Carlos before.

I was actually surprised to hear James say that everyone between him and the blind likes to fold and then mentioned that Carlos was between him and the blinds. That has not been my experience with him. I would avoid these "steal" type situations with marginal hands like A8o and a player like Carlos in between.

[Jeffage]

My advice...don't mess with Carlos in this spot. He is very crafty and loves to catch people bluffing. Your checkraise and his read of you as a player probably made HIM more likely to call. In my experience, he will never fold in this spot because he will put you on Ace big with the ace of clubs. I like your play against many players, but not him...hard to explain why, but I have played with him enough times to form this impression.

Jeff

[Lawrence Ng]

And this was considered a tough game? Carlos is spewing tells out of his nostrils pretty much screaming "I have a decent, but not strong hand and I ain't afraid of you."

Lawrence

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Good read.

DcifrThs and I were smashing the 20/40 against the far wall on Saturday... wish I would have known there were more 2+2-ers in the house. My friend Steve was playing in your game on Saturday... mid 20's, kind of long hair, blue jacket in the 6 seat. He ended up losing his buy-in and seemed to be running bad....if you remember him at all, any thoughts on how he played?

-tpir

[/ QUOTE ]

He was two seats to my right. I thought he was playing great and was actually going to say so, but there was no real opportunity that didn't seem gay. I thought about asking him if he was a 2+2er, since it seems most of the young folks in that game turn out to be.
-James

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not only does our hero have the Ace of clubs, as El Diablo pointed out, but does he know Carlos?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I would have assumed that if he played with him for more than an hour he could have picked that up. Plus 90% of the time time I have played in the 20-40 or higher game at the Borgata, Carlos has been in it, so I assume if James has played in AC before he has played with Carlos before.

I was actually surprised to hear James say that everyone between him and the blind likes to fold and then mentioned that Carlos was between him and the blinds. That has not been my experience with him. I would avoid these "steal" type situations with marginal hands like A8o and a player like Carlos in between.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've found that when he is too loose preflop, he tends to play too tight postflop. And by too loose I'd guess his vpip to a raise is like 20 at most. He tilts in some ways and then makes up for it in his mind by trying to play extra-good postflop. At least he has when he doesn't feel like paying off us young WPT watching types. I've played about 30 hours with him or so, and have noticed his loose tendencies preflop, but I don't think one loose player behind me makes up for the equity I get from the one extremely tight player in the BB and the very tight players besides this one loose player.

But in the end, you're right that this probably wasn't the ideal time to steal. My buddy who had been sweating me/talking to me had finally went to his game and I was getting super-bored, something I have been trying very hard to overcome in my live game play.
-James

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
And this was considered a tough game? Carlos is spewing tells out of his nostrils pretty much screaming "I have a decent, but not strong hand and I ain't afraid of you."

Lawrence

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but I don't think you can call a judgment on how tough this game is based on the actions of one player who, during this 1 particular hand, decided to talk. I've also seen him do similar things with AA or AK, so in this case, he could be sending tells or reverse tells.
-James

[AceHigh]

[ QUOTE ]
Carlos turns to me and says, "So you know, I shouldn't tell you this, but one mistake young players make is when they are bluffing, they always look for a second at the other players' chips hoping that they won't start moving towards the pot."

[/ QUOTE ]

You could wear sunglasses.

Are you sure he wasn't giving you a fake tell so you wouldn't guess about your real tell?

[Blackjack]

Yea,

I give off so many tells unknowingly. It's like I can't sit still at a BM table. It's awful lol.

The games are so soft but I could own them if I could just figure out how to play properly and control my tells.

Blackjack

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]


You could wear sunglasses.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but then I'd be a huge [censored]. I think I'll just try to control myself better. It could be a fake tell, but if I have any tell at all it'd be nice to get rid of. I really don't put much(any) stake in tells as part of my game and I sincerely doubt more than 1% of players use them for any profit at all, but it seems like simply controlling myself completely would be a step in the right direction.
-James

[etizzle]

If theyre 'so soft' I doubt anyone at the table is using your tells profitably. Heck theyre probably just trying to figure out if they have 5 in a row or just 4.

[TStoneMBD]

as far as tells are concerned, i pick up on a few now and then but i can only recall one instance in which i picked up on someones unique tell. every time he had a big hand he would make a sniffle with his nose. other than that i dont have any recollection of seeing a guy stacking his chips a certain way, moving his shoulders in a circular motion, or anything odd like that. i pick up on basic tells like when a player sits back in their chair, they stare me down, their face turns red, their hands start shaking, they look down and to the right, the talk with confidence, they cant breathe, etc, etc. these tells are pretty reliable in most circumstances.

[etizzle]

one of my favorite tells is when a player says something to the effect of "I think you're bluffing this time" or "I dont think you have it" . This almost ALWAYS means a monster. At the fwoods 5-5 the other day someone said 'I dont think you got it this time' after just calling a bet on the flop from the preflop raiser on a Q62r flop. After the hand he flashed 66.

[Swills]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You could wear sunglasses.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but then I'd be a huge [censored]. I think I'll just try to control myself better. It could be a fake tell, but if I have any tell at all it'd be nice to get rid of. I really don't put much(any) stake in tells as part of my game and I sincerely doubt more than 1% of players use them for any profit at all, but it seems like simply controlling myself completely would be a step in the right direction.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

Good man. Don't wear sun glasses. I swear, ever since WSOP aired, all I see is people wearing sun glasses while playing 2-4, 3-6, etc. This may be correct to some of you but I know for a fact that everyone who plays at that those tables don't know how to read tells because they also don't know how to play poker.

[J_V]

That is a very interesting and accurate tell.

[wgarvin]

James, can you tell me one thing. I am a 4-tabler PartyPoker 15/30. I have only one screen and I suspect I am developing an interesting wrist condition from having to speed the mouse from table to table. 4-tabling also makes it hard to get a good read on the players. But .... 4-tabling is the only way I can keep my VPIP down to a reasonable (ie only semilaggish) level. 1- or 2- tabling, I get bored, and the chips start going in on those intriguing 3-gap low suited disconnectors.
So my question is this: how do you cope with the problem that in live play you spend 95% of your time out of the game??