JJ - as an overpair, Too Aggressive?

[etgryphon]

Hey All...

This is the third hand of the tournament. Everyone has the same number of chips for the most part.

UB, 30+3, 10ppl, 10 people left, BB 20

UTG
<font color="red">Hero(UTG+1)</font>
UTG+2
MP1
<font color="red">MP2 (Villan)</font>
MP3
CO
Button
SB
BB

Dealt: J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Preflop: UTG folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Villain raises 60, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button Calls, SB folds BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls...

Pot: 300
Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks, Hero checks, Villain bets 300, folded around to me, I raise 600, Villian goes into the tank and says "Flopped a set?" no answer from me...

Villian Folds...

Hero gets 1200 from pot.

Any and all comments welcome. Raise preflop? Reraise Preflop? Bet out on the flop? Call?

-Gryph

[11t]

I think you either had the winning hand or forced somebody with aces to fold.

With two limpers coming in from early position I feel that most people with KK or QQ would put in a much larger raise to protect their hand from having an over card hit on the flop, however with AA many people would put in such a small raise simply to gauruntee some action with what they know to be the best hand at the time. The 300 bet on the flop would also be consistent with aces since he would be attempting to protect his hand with the flushdraw on the board.

Personally I would have bet out 60 UTG and then played from there. If I would have called then I would have bet out 150 on the flop, if he puts in a re-raise I would have most likely folded since the only hand I can reasonably seeing him having that I would have beat is TT.

Of course if he did indeed have aces you played it in such a way that it won you the hand. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[El Maximo]

My postflop play is weak. So take this with a grain of salt. I limp and call the initial raise with JJ. Im playing it for set value but this was a flop I would take a stab at. I would lead out the flop with a probing bet. Maybe 125-175. I would fold if he came over the top with a big reraise. If he called I would lead out the turn if no scare card hit. Im sure other can give you better advice. I dont like the big check-raise on the flop. If he does have an overpair you are pretty much committed to go to showdown.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
My postflop play is weak. So take this with a grain of salt. I limp and call the initial raise with JJ. Im playing it for set value but this was a flop I would take a stab at. I would lead out the flop with a probing bet. Maybe 125-175. I would fold if he came over the top with a big reraise. If he called I would lead out the turn if no scare card hit. Im sure other can give you better advice. I dont like the big check-raise on the flop. If he does have an overpair you are pretty much committed to go to showdown.

[/ QUOTE ]

After f*cking up these situations more times than I can count, I'm convinced this is the best line. (see my recent TT post if you want another example) Check raising I hate because it doesn't define your opponents hand (he'll bet AK here just like AA) and it costs you more chips to see if you're actually ahead.

Also, a C/R means your representing a bigger hand than you actually have, which is rarely correct. In fact, a C/R here is very close to a bluff, as you can only be called by 1 hand that you beat. (and TT will drop here a large % of the time) So, if you wouldn't C/R with 38o here, you shouldn't be doing it with JJ either.

If you bet out AK/AQ will be hard pressed to call, and players here aren't generally tricky enough to call with QQ/KK/AA.

So bet/fold to a reraise.
If called bet 1/2 pot on any non A/K turn.
If called again shut down.

[etgryphon]

Thanks guys...

I wanted another opinion because I didn't feel comfortable with the play even though I won. I think leading out on the flop would have been good, but the only problem is that I would not be able to tell the difference between a reraise with A9s than with AA/KK/QQ and I would have expected a higher reraise preflop. I think he had AK/AQ/AJ. He was definately a autobettor on the flop if he raised preflop.

-Gryph

[juris]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you either had the winning hand or forced somebody with aces to fold.

With two limpers coming in from early position I feel that most people with KK or QQ would put in a much larger raise to protect their hand from having an over card hit on the flop, however with AA many people would put in such a small raise simply to gauruntee some action with what they know to be the best hand at the time. The 300 bet on the flop would also be consistent with aces since he would be attempting to protect his hand with the flushdraw on the board.

Personally I would have bet out 60 UTG and then played from there. If I would have called then I would have bet out 150 on the flop, if he puts in a re-raise I would have most likely folded since the only hand I can reasonably seeing him having that I would have beat is TT.

Of course if he did indeed have aces you played it in such a way that it won you the hand. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The AA hand isn't folding here. Period. Especially a bad player.

[11t]

Yah, I would think he has AK or AQ and was tryiing to buy the pot.

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]
I think leading out on the flop would have been good, but the only problem is that I would not be able to tell the difference between a reraise with A9s

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean raise? If A9s lies within Villain's range of raising hands after you lead the flop then good for him, I'm folding.

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think leading out on the flop would have been good, but the only problem is that I would not be able to tell the difference between a reraise with A9s

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean raise? If A9s lies within Villain's range of raising hands after you lead the flop then good for him, I'm folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Semantics... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

This was at 3am and it was a drunk Canadian so I think A9 was well within a raising hand after a lead out by me.

-Gryph

[Unarmed]

[ QUOTE ]

This was at 3am and it was a drunk Canadian so I think A9 was well within a raising hand after a lead out by me.
-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

HEY! I'm a drunk Canadian. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
Anyway, just to be clear, raising A9s after you lead is a lovely play, complete with a ton of FE and 12 outs which are all clean 99% of the time. I just don't think a random SNG player is capable of it.

And as an aside, one of the reasons I find these situations so tough to play is that while I believe a flop lead is correct, it almost perfectly defines your hand allowing Villain to pick you off with any two cards.

Fortunately, in order to do so he'd have to be capable of doing so (which he probably isn't) AND know that you were capable of laying down TT/JJ here. (which he probably doesn't)

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey All...

This is the third hand of the tournament. Everyone has the same number of chips for the most part.

UB, 30+3, 10ppl, 10 people left, BB 20

UTG
<font color="red">Hero(UTG+1)</font>
UTG+2
MP1
<font color="red">MP2 (Villan)</font>
MP3
CO
Button
SB
BB

Dealt: J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Preflop: UTG folds, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, Villain raises 60, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button Calls, SB folds BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls...

Pot: 300
Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
BB checks, Hero checks, Villain bets 300, folded around to me, I raise 600, Villian goes into the tank and says "Flopped a set?" no answer from me...

Villian Folds...

Hero gets 1200 from pot.

Any and all comments welcome. Raise preflop? Reraise Preflop? Bet out on the flop? Call?

-Gryph

[/ QUOTE ]

looks to me like you played the hand fine. your raise to 600 on the flop says, "if YOU (Villian) flopped a set or has a hand, then nows the time to show me". good play, IMO.