What is a good/bad session at a B&M????

[PokerBob]

I usually play online, but in the last month I have played 7-8 sessions at Canterbury Park. Friday I won 55BB at 4/8, and yesterday I won 81BB, 48 at 3/6, 33 at 6/12. I've got to believe I am on the mother of all heaters. Anyone else have similar stories? Also, I know I am going to give some back sometime. What is the worst session you've had? Just curious. I have some idea what "normal" swings are like online, but am in the dark for B&M games.
Thanks,
PBob

[steamboatin]

Last Thursday, I won 29BB is about four hours and Friday I lost 21BB in about three hours. Does that give you some idea?

[rookieplus]

Most recent was +62BB in six hours at Turning Stone 3/6.

I find 3/6, 4/8, and 5/10 casino games very easy to beat, much more so than on line. The truth is that I've never had a negative session at B&M playing limit HE. Maybe I've just been lucky to get involved in incredibly soft games.

NLHE is another story. I don't stink at it but I can't seem to make the profit that I make at the limit tables. I may not be able to deal with the swings as well.

I haven't really considered moving up to 10/20 or above.

A while back I posted a question in a similar thread and got no responses so I'll do it again. I've continually read about how making 1-2BB/hour is considered an appropriate win rate. My B&M experience with so many bad players indicates that such an estimate is far too low. By way of example, if I played with my 12 year old son and his friends, I should win far more than 2BB/hour. So the question is - What is a decent win rate at lower limit B&M in the current poker climate?

[IsaacW]

[ QUOTE ]
Most recent was +62BB in six hours at Turning Stone 3/6.

I find 3/6, 4/8, and 5/10 casino games very easy to beat, much more so than on line. The truth is that I've never had a negative session at B&M playing limit HE. Maybe I've just been lucky to get involved in incredibly soft games.

NLHE is another story. I don't stink at it but I can't seem to make the profit that I make at the limit tables. I may not be able to deal with the swings as well.

I haven't really considered moving up to 10/20 or above.

A while back I posted a question in a similar thread and got no responses so I'll do it again. I've continually read about how making 1-2BB/hour is considered an appropriate win rate. My B&M experience with so many bad players indicates that such an estimate is far too low. By way of example, if I played with my 12 year old son and his friends, I should win far more than 2BB/hour. So the question is - What is a decent win rate at lower limit B&M in the current poker climate?

[/ QUOTE ]
The online games play tougher than the B&M games at equal limits. $2/4 at Party is way tougher than $2/4 at Foxwoods.

A good B&M dealer will get in about 20 hands in a half-hour sitting if your table is not acting too slowly. At 40 hands an hour, 2 BB/hour is 5BB/100. That is about what might be sustainable for an excellent player at micro-limits online (say 50c/$1 at Party). 1 BB/hour is of course 2.5 BB/100, and this is the winrate of a decent player at the micro-limits online.

Therefore, I am not inclined to think that a winrate above 2 BB/hour is sustainable in a B&M environment, because of the slow rate of play.

[chief444]

1-2 BB/hour long term is terrific. If you've never had a negative session or if you believe otherwise then you haven't played much at all.

The lower limit games have generally poor opponents but you're lucky to get 25-30 hands an hour because they're very loose and slow. Plus the rake is usually far more significant than at either the higher limit games or online.

The swings I would say vary quite a bit depending on what game you're playing and obviously NL swings can be very high. But the ones PokerBob listed seem extremely high to me for limit even if you play in very loose/aggressive games.

[steamboatin]

Because of the low number of hands per hour, the long term takes a very long time to reach. If you haven't had a losing session playing B&M you are running really good or playing way to tight.

Variance will catch up to you. I know, I went about four months without a losing session. Then I went five sessions in a row without a winning session. I have stopped putting so much emphasis on session results and try to concentrate on my play.

[tylerdurden]

For 2004, I had two winning sessions for every losing session. By "session" I mean a single stretch at a single table.

My worst session was a 10/20 game at the Tunica Horseshoe, in which I lost 30BB in six hours. That was really dumb, I was chasing these two fish that were on a hot streak and had built up huge stacks. I won about half of that back right after that next door at the goldstrike, playing pineapple (!) against a table full of drunk frat boys.

My best session in BBs was a 7.50/15 game at the tunica Grand in which I won 44BB in an hour and a half. While wating to get in that game, I won 35BB in two hours in a 4/8 game.

For the year, I had a B&M win rate of 2.27 BB/hour. My B&M time was too small for this to be significant, though.

[pc in NM]

[ QUOTE ]
Because of the low number of hands per hour, the long term takes a very long time to reach. If you haven't had a losing session playing B&M you are running really good or playing way to tight.

Variance will catch up to you. I know, I went about four months without a losing session. Then I went five sessions in a row without a winning session. I have stopped putting so much emphasis on session results and try to concentrate on my play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm used to playing two or three tables on line, and find that I can quickly overcome a "bad streak" - in a B&M, sometimes the "bad streaks" seem like they last forever - and, they do, clockwise, just not # of hands-wise....

I have won 50 + BB's at 4/8 a couple of times, and they were "great nights"; on New Year's Eve, I had my worst B&M losing session ever - minus-55 BB's in about 8 hours - a most horrific experience....

I find that I have to focus on "the long view" (play vs outcomes) much more @ B&M to maintain an even keel. I've only been playing seriously for 16 months, but I surmise that the poker-learning experience is vastly different since online poker than before....

[rookieplus]

I know that 10BB/hour is not sustainable (and I do not claim that kind of return over any period of time that could be considered statistically significant) but I've had so much success at B&M low limit games that the idea of 1-2BB/hour seemed too low of an expectation.

As for another comment that I read - that I might "believe" I've never had a negative session, I think I was careful to limit that claim to B&M low limit HE. I am certain that I am correct in that assessment. I am also certain that as I play more, I will undoubtedly have losing sessions as I do on line. I wish I had never left a casino or poker room with less than I cam in with, but that's not the case.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
As for another comment that I read - that I might "believe" I've never had a negative session, I think I was careful to limit that claim to B&M low limit HE. I am certain that I am correct in that assessment.

[/ QUOTE ]
I meant if you "believe" 1-2 BB/hour is too low of an expectation. In no way, shape or form did I mean to imply you were not being truthful about not having a losing session. I was just saying that since you haven't ever had a losing session you probably haven't played that many sessions. That's all.

[PokerBob]

I am no expert, but I believe that the advantage of actually being able to SEE your opponents has to give you an advantage, especially at 3/6 and 4/8. (Yesterday at 6/12 the guy next to me let out a disappointed sigh when the flop came 995. At showdown he showed his qaud 9's.) Some of the tells exhibited by these players are obvious. (Another situation: I raise AQs utg. One guy calls. Flop comes ATT. I bet, he calls. Turn is a brick. I bet, he raises. I look at him, who is calmly and disinterestedly watching TV, and think "does he really have me? He acts like he doesn't care, which clearly means he has a monster. But I can't get away from TPQK." I look him up and he shows pocket A's. I should have given him for credit for a ten and mucked, but I have leaks just like everybody else.) I know there are less hands/hr at B&M, but the advantage gained from a moderate ability to read people has to count for something.

I am by no means suggesting that I will always win at B&M games, but the players I have seen there are infinitely worse than even the clowns I run into at Party 1/2. Isn't B&M at 4/8 more profitable (or at least close) to 4-tabling at Party 1/2?

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]

Isn't B&M at 4/8 more profitable (or at least close) to 4-tabling at Party 1/2?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it, due the higher rake and tipping. Plus you don't play 4x as many hands 4 tabling online as 1 table B&M, you probably play 6x more /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Isn't B&M at 4/8 more profitable (or at least close) to 4-tabling at Party 1/2?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it, due the higher rake and tipping. Plus you don't play 4x as many hands 4 tabling online as 1 table B&M, you probably play 6x more /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably right, but (at least for me) it can be difficult to establish solid reads on players while 4-tabling.

[chief444]

I'm pretty sure 4-tabling at 1/2 would be unprofitable for me. I have trouble keeping up with more than two tables at a time. But then I'm a little slow.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
But then I'm a little slow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me too. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ScottTheFish]

[ QUOTE ]

You are probably right, but (at least for me) it can be difficult to establish solid reads on players while 4-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right, you can't. But you have poker tracker online...plus even if your win rate 4 tabling is half what it is at one table, well, you're playing 4x the hands, so...

[haakee]

81BB is monstrous. You'll typically have single session swings between +/- 30BB. My biggest loss was 61BB in a ~5 hour 6-12 session, and my biggest win was 82BB in a ~6 hour 20-40 session.

El Diablo once won >100BB in a marathon B&M session.

[sucka]

Maybe I've just been lucky to get involved in incredibly soft games.

Just because you play in soft games doesn't mean they are auto-beatable.

When playing LL games you have to get some decent hands to play and hit some flops and hit your strong draws the appropriate percentage of the time (or more).

Period. End of Story.

Trust me, you play long enough you're going to have a session where you consistently make the 2nd best hand, miss every draw and get run down every time you flop TPTK, two pair that doesn't improve, etc...

Unfortunately, those nightS (emphazise the S) will happen and you'll get your ass handed to you. No one is invulnerable to that no matter what the texture of the games are that you play in.

[Bremen]

[ QUOTE ]
What is a decent win rate at lower limit B&M in the current poker climate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well you've seen what others have said. I do believe 3BB/hr is possible in some of these very loose/passive games. However I doubt this will ever be settled as no one is about to play a signifact sample size of 2/4, 3/6. Do you want to play 1000+ hours of 2/4 just to prove a point? I sure don't.

[Aaron Harsh]

Well, having no losing sessions simply means you have not met the cold hearted poker goddess yet. When she arrives, you will recognize her. Every set of aces you make on the flop will be sucked out by 2 4 offsuit making the wheel on the river. Every straight will be beaten by 7 T suited on the river. And this will happen for an entire session. Been there, it sucks.

As far as numbers, I play in a regular B&M $10/$20 and/or $15/$30 game and have made 50BB and have lost 25BB in single sessions. I average 1.6 BB per hour in that game and I feel that's the best I can do, and I do feel that I play fairly well.

Online I two table $15/$30 at Party and have had winning sessions of up to 74BB and losing sessions of 63BB. I average 2.7 BB per hour of profit at this level.

I attribute the difference in earnings to the hands dealt per hour. I figure that the B&M dealers give me 25 hands per hour or so to look at while online I get around 100 to 120 or so with two tables. And while online may seem like a tougher game, it may be because you have so many loose aggressive players willing to try chase you down. I call this the California style because they seem to be players who want to ram and jam and don't care about the money that much. Sometimes our B&M game is tight and tough, and you just have to adapt. Of course, Canterbury is all California style ram and jam, except the $6/$12 which can be fairly tight and tough. Try the $8/$16 there....it's like a $2/$4 game on steroids. Bring a large and strong seatbelt with a big bankroll.

Well, hope those numbers help in your comparitive analysis. Good Luck and hope that Poker Goddess never makes it to your door.