Howz this flush draw?

[trentcroad]

Did I play this correctly?
Im mainly wondering about the turn.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (6 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

River: (18 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

[milesdyson]

Sometimes I bet out on the turn after playing aggressively on the flop, but not when the turn card completes a straight and is an overcard to my hand.

I also wouldn't three bet this flop against only two opponents, especially

1. because it has come to my attention recently that because you will also have to put more money in on the turn if you don't hit, pumping a flush draw with just two callers isn't for value.

2. because you're out of position.

I would also check raise this river unless I really didn't expect a bet. But with BB capping that turn, I think he has a straight and will probably bet. If you had a read that they got scared of the river flush card, good bet.

[Hack]

It's fine. I don't think you should cap the turn either. Your call is fine. You obviously aren't folding so I think you played it well.

Nice hand.

[Piiop]

Raise preflop. Checkraise the river.

[Vern]

I think the the flop re-raise is borderline. You have a very strong draw, your K and T outs are likely still good, and you are drawing to the second nut flush so you have 15 cards out of 47 unseen that improve you and two streets to hit but with only two opponents, you are not making any money on the bets going in and your raise is not likely to get you a free card on the turn.

Why are you betting the turn? There is 4 to a straight and an overcard to your hand. You have King high on this board vs two opponents and your outs are down to 9 out of 46 or 1/5. Unless you thought they might both fold, your bet is spewing IMHO. You are going to call any bets likely, but betting here is wrong.

Against two opponents betting/raising the turn, I think the time for a river check/raise is right. It is unlikely to get past both of them w/o a bet you can checkraise.

Vern

[Wario]

I would raise preflop.

Flop is good.

I would check/call the turn. You no longer have an equity edge and you're not taking down this pot with a bluff. This means you want to see the river as cheaply as possible, so getting your bet raised (which the Ace makes more likely) really sucks. Of course once it is raised and reraised you have to call because of the high pot odds the pot is offering you.

A check/raise is a better river line especially in your position because the most recent better is on your immediate left.

[Wario]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the the flop re-raise is borderline. You have a very strong draw, your K and T outs are likely still good, and you are drawing to the second nut flush so you have 15 cards out of 47 unseen that improve you and two streets to hit but with only two opponents, you are not making any money on the bets going in and your raise is not likely to get you a free card on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 15 outs and two streets in which to hit them it is my understanding that our Hero has a reasonable pot equity edge against two opponents and therefore makes money on every bet matched by both of them.

Could you explain why he's not making money on the flop bets?

[Vern]

You are probably right, but with no way to win without improving and only two opponents, I don't think this is the place to pump the flop. Hero is going to win this at the river about 55% of the time so if both opponents are willing to cap the flop, hero makes money so with two opponents on a 50%+ proposition, hero appears to be able to safely pump the flop if I understand pumping correctly.

BTW I got 55% by halving the overcard outs since the turn could bring 4 to a straight, an overcard to one or both of hero's cards so using 12 outs of 47, hero misses the turn 35/47 and river 34/46 (35*34)/(47*46) which is about 55%.

I think since I would be more comfortable pumping the flop vs two opponents with a chance to win unimproved, say middle pair as well as an overcard and flush draw.

Vern

[Wario]

As I expected I am still confused /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Why does Hero need to make his hand by the river 50% of the time to have an equity edge on the flop? Shouldn't it be anything over 33% which is the percentage of bets paid by Hero on the flop?

I'm assuming that the flop actions have no consequence on later rounds. For example Hero is going to have to pay at least one bet on the turn to see the river whether he pumps the flop or not and will probably get paid off on the river whatever he does aswell.

Also, do you think you could explain in greater detail why we shouldn't raise the flop without the ability to win unimproved?

Greatly appreciated.

[Vern]

I make no warranties but here goes.

You are correct about not needing more than 50%, I listed 55% because that is what the chance was, not because it was what he needed. You make immediate money anytime you put in a bet with callers that exceed your percentage chance of winning with the next card or by the river if you are sure you are going to see the showdown. Against two players, you need better than a 33.33% chance of having the best hand at the river to pump the flop.

The chance to win unimproved increases the value of the bets on the flop and turn since you can show down at the river and still win he pot you have built, where with king high against two you could not. Additionally, even having bottom pair increase the strength of your weak draws, since hitting one of the 2 outs to make trips give you better than top pair and hitting your overcard gives you top card up with two pair, also better than just top pair and increases your chance to win when you do hit the weaker draws. Your bets are adding value to your hand because the callers exceed the % of your chance to have the best hand at show down and you may currently have the best hand an therefor also be betting that best hand for immediate value.

Vern

[Wario]

Thanks for the explanation.

We only need to make a winning hand by the river more than 33.3% to show profit on a flop bet. Therefore by making a winning hand by the river 55% of the time we have a reasonably large pot equity edge, large enough to counter the possibility of BB capping and knocking MP2 out.

So to me it seems like 3-betting the flop is +EV as it probably wont affect later streets.

[kenberman]

no need to lead out the turn. you end up putting in 1/3 of the bets, when your hand is only good 1/4 (lower actually) of the time.

check/raise the river.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i wouldn't 3-bet this flop.

and btw. your turn bet isn't folding anybody and its not for value either.

[Vern]

Chris,

We had a long discussion on this and I am having a brain fart. I don't think three betting the flop is for value out of position against two opponents, but assuming the overcards are worth half outs, isn't hero getting two bets in the pot for every one he puts in one when he will win at by the river 50% of the time. I am searching the forums for flop pumping, because I am not comfortable with it, but cannot get my head around the math on why a 3-bet is not worth it on the flop.

Vern

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i didn't read any of responses to this thread, but the main problem is that you are 3-betting out of position. what do you do on the turn when you don't hit? check and your hand becomes transparent and observant players won't pay off, bet and your equity is drastically cut and you may have to pay even more bets than you'd like.

also, you should forgo the flop 3-bet to set up the turn checkraise if you hit any of your multitude of outs.

i'm usually the biggest advocate of pumping draws and this would be one to pump with more players or in position, however you have neither. with just 2 opponents the non-nut flush draw is actually just even money to the times you'll lose to the nutflush/fullhouse, with overcards it pushes it to +EV, but the turn checkraise is so much sweeter.

[Vern]

Thanks, that make more sense than I was able to respond with.

Vern

[davelin]

Just check/call the turn.

[trentcroad]

Thanks for the great comments guys.
All where really good.
Learnt alot
Cheers

[aron]

Now there has been a thorough discussion on this hand but if you'd like to read more about it check out Ajax 410s
flush draw post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Board=micro&amp;Number=1174623&amp;fpart =&amp;PHPSESSID=).

aron

[Shillx]

I used to play flush draws this way, but it is clearly not the way to play them. Just call the raise on the flop and then get a check-raise in if you spike a K/T//images/graemlins/club.gif. Turn bet sucks but so does checking as you should just turn your cards face up as you do nothing short of announcing to the table that you have a flush draw.

Brad