Who likes this K9s on the button?

[MasterShakes]

CO is a loose/passive (about 35/2.5). I called down here because the typical player at this level likes to slowplay or check-raise their hands like this (trips made on the turn). If he doesn't have an ace, I'm almost definitely ahead. I can't put him on an ace here, so I call down.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

[Shillx]

I raise the turn and take the free showdown.

Brad

[MasterShakes]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise the turn and take the free showdown.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

If the turn raise accomplishes nothing but a free showdown though, what is the purpose of the raise? The showdown is seen for 2 big bets either way. If he is beaten, there's a good chance he folds and I get nothing else out of him. If he's ahead with trips, there's a good chance that he 3-bets the turn or possibly stops and goes on the river. Doesn't calling down extract the most when ahead and lose the least when behind (when seeing a showdown)?

[Shillx]

Calling the turn only makes sense if this guy is a frequent bluffer.

You fold to a 3-bet and you fold if he pulls a stop and go.

Brad

[MasterShakes]

[ QUOTE ]
Calling the turn only makes sense if this guy is a frequent bluffer.

You fold to a 3-bet and you fold if he pulls a stop and go.

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

But again, what does the turn raise accomplish? There's these possible scenarios if I raise:

1) He 3-bets
2) He folds
3) He stops and goes
4) He calls and checks the river

In two of those scenarios, I'm not seeing the showdown for the same number of bets it would take to see the showdown for certain.

In the folding situation, he almost certainly has folded a lesser hand (which I don't want him to do).

In the calling and then checking the river situation, it's still a showdown for the same number of bets.

I just don't see the benefit of raising the turn.

[Shillx]

I'm playing 3 tables. I would love to explain my reasoning but I'm just too busy. I'm sure someone else will chime in. Calling is good only if you think he is bluffing and will fold if you raise. If the guy is not a frequent bluffer then you should raise here (right out of TOP).

Brad

[MasterShakes]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing 3 tables. I would love to explain my reasoning but I'm just too busy. I'm sure someone else will chime in. Calling is good only if you think he is bluffing and will fold if you raise. If the guy is not a frequent bluffer then you should raise here (right out of TOP).

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I said above, "I can't put him on an ace, so I call down." This might not be putting him on a pure bluff, and I didn't call it a bluff, but that's essentially what I have him on here - something less than AA99K. If I do have him on trip aces or better, why on earth would I raise?

The point of this hand, to me, was this (and I'm trying to get some more discussion about it started): I have him on something less than trip aces, so how do I get the most out of it while at the same time ensuring the cheapest showdown?

[soko]

I am looking in TOP p130 3rd paragraph "Which brings up a second consideration when you're thinking about raising to get a free card - namely that the free card is not free at all. It costs you the price of your raise. So unless you have other reasons for raising, you would only make the play when the cost of the raise now is cheaper than what you'd have to pay for a call on the next round."

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm playing 3 tables. I would love to explain my reasoning but I'm just too busy. I'm sure someone else will chime in. Calling is good only if you think he is bluffing and will fold if you raise. If the guy is not a frequent bluffer then you should raise here (right out of TOP).

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I said above, "I can't put him on an ace, so I call down." This might not be putting him on a pure bluff, and I didn't call it a bluff, but that's essentially what I have him on here - something less than AA99K. If I do have him on trip aces or better, why on earth would I raise?

The point of this hand, to me, was this (and I'm trying to get some more discussion about it started): I have him on something less than trip aces, so how do I get the most out of it while at the same time ensuring the cheapest showdown?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is counter-intuative. You are HU so you are contributing 50%. You must bet if you want to be called, and build a bigger pot. I do understand what you mean by trying to get the cheapest showdown, but HU you have to bet. Your read puts villian on 2nd best hand, and you have him beat. Why not raise the turn?

[Shillx]

If you know that he doesn't have an ace (and you have the best hand), then raise for value dude.

How you know that he doesn't have an ace is beyond me.

Brad

[Entity]

Guys,

The reason to raise the turn is if he has a hand like two spades or JT or whatever and for whatever godawful reason decides to semibluff the turn. This way you get value out of hands that have outs against you and will call, but won't call a river bet/raise.

Another 9 will very rarely 3-bet you here, and sometimes a hand that is chopping (K9), though rare, will fold to your turn raise.

The only reason not to make this play is if a player is a frequent bluffer, and will bet the turn and river with nothing. It's best just to call them down.

You do not call if you are 3-bet, so the vast majority of the time you get to showdown for the same price as calling two bets, but get extra value out of drawing hands.

I'm tired, so I'm not sure that I got that across correctly, but Shill will correct anything he sees that he doesn't like.

Rob

[pindawg]

The free card isn't gonna help him in this situation, it's not going to improve his hand.

I always thought it was typically used on the flop to see the river for free (no turn betting), in hope of improving your hand. I don't see it here, I like the check/call line.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
The free card isn't gonna help him in this situation, it's not going to improve his hand.

I always thought it was typically used on the flop to see the river for free (no turn betting), in hope of improving your hand. I don't see it here, I like the check/call line.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have position. Read my analysis for why you raise here.

Rob

[Shillx]

Well said.

Brad

[pindawg]

Aye

I understand your explanation a lot better then "raise for the free card"

[soko]

I guess I understand what he is talking about but I am not putting him quite on a flush draw here either, why is he going to bet the turn with a flush draw HU but not the flop where he is looking to get multi-way value?

[Shillx]

Dude I was saying raise for a free showdown, not a free card.

[MasterShakes]

[ QUOTE ]
The reason to raise the turn is if he has a hand like two spades or JT or whatever and for whatever godawful reason decides to semibluff the turn. This way you get value out of hands that have outs against you and will call, but won't call a river bet/raise.



[/ QUOTE ]

This makes complete sense to me. Reasoning like this is what players need to hear rather than the action to take with no reasoning stated.

[Shillx]

Whatever dude. I don't have the time to go into detail as I said before. I'm not going to give you shady advice...

Brad

[MasterShakes]

[ QUOTE ]
Whatever dude. I don't have the time to go into detail as I said before. I'm not going to give you shady advice...

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

This is your 7th reply to this thread and you couldn't go into detail once? If it's a burden to you, don't reply at all.

[Vern]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I understand what he is talking about but I am not putting him quite on a flush draw here either, why is he going to bet the turn with a flush draw HU but not the flop where he is looking to get multi-way value?

[/ QUOTE ]

HU villian's turn bet has fold equity if done as a semi-bluff with a good draw. This adds value to his bet because some % of the time he wins by making a 9, 8 or pocket pair fold. If he has nothing but a draw, he won't call a missed draw on the river unless he is kingfish, but we don't have that read yet so we want to make him pay for his draw on the turn. Only a true maniac would three-bet this without an Ace, 99 or 88 and if he leads the river, you can fold figuring his stop-n-go was to get another bet out of you with his monster. If he folds his draw to the turn raise, we still make money, because a hand like JT has the odds to call that raise on the turn to try and hit a Q, J, T or 7 so our raise actually has fold equity of it's own.