Party $30/$60, hand #3 - K9s, a poll.

[Fianchetto]

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, Hero ????


Top pair/weak kicker, back door flush draw, getting probably 5.5 : 1.

What's your move and why?

[Ian J]

I think you've got to fold here. Neither player is likely to have a draw because the BB wouldn't want to knock out players and I don't see why the MP player would try to knock you out either. Your hand certainly is behind 1 of their hands if not both. The backdoor flush draw is about the only thing going for you.

[Fianchetto]

Thanks, just wanted to make sure I wasn't being too results oriented.

I folded the winner on the flop. Turns out MP3 had Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif , BB had K /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Turn and river were blanks, my kicker would have played.

[JasonP530]

You should fold. MP3 is an idiot, and drove you off the best hand. Against reasonable players, when youre not up against a better hand, youre up against a draw, so you will lose a decent percentage of the time anyway.

[FoxRiverPlayer]

I call mainly for one reason: the initial raise came from the bb. If I had Kx in his spot I'd raise there, trying to get to a cheap showdown and protect my hand from the mp3. He could have any kicker here - if he had limped and was a reasonable player, I'd prefer a fold.

The mp3's 3-bet in late position could so easily be a draw. If your read on him is that he wouldn't play a draw this way, a fold is in order, but absent a read I don't think so. Seems like AK or KQ would have raised preflop, and most players would be more passive with KJ or KT here.
Only other hands that beat you are: K8 (you're in some trouble but not terrible), Q8 &amp; 88 (you have outs plus your back door draw). I'm leaving out AA, KK &amp; QQ as very unlikely.

[Paluka]

In the party 30/60 game I like capping the flop against many of regulars. The board has a ton of draws on it, and in my experience the players in this game are much more likely to play a draw very aggressivly rather than be passive and just call hoping to get overcalls. If you cap the flop and then get raised again on the turn you can feel much better about folding. Also, there just aren' that many hands that players would limp with in this game that are ahead of you here. Just 88, KQo, KJs pretty much.

[DiamondDave]

The big blind would probably raise with any king, many queens, and some draws. You are probably in front of him, although you won't know until the showdown.

There are many hands with which a somewhat reasonable MP would threebet the flop. (Basically, anything he is not folding. Diamonds, AJ, AT, JT, a queen, even A8 are all quite possible.) It's far from clear that he flopped the best hand.

I don't think you can lay it down at this point unless you have a read on one of the players in the hand. (Which, incidentally, makes a pretty strong case for not seeing too many flops from the small blind until you have that read.)

Since there are so many turn cards that will make me want to slow down (or even fold), I don't want to commit too many chips to the pot before fourth street. I think a call is in order.

[DeeJ]

Without a better read, I think you played it just fine. More often than not you will be looking at the old KQ / K8 / Q8 / KK / QQ / AA ... and be spewing chips against 2 opponents who may be raising it up.

It's not as if you were safe from draws either.

[Peter_rus]

I cap here too routinely if i bet. Though i like c/r more. In this case i would check-3bet flop.

[theBruiser500]

I have little to no understanding of when you bet out or check/raise in unraised pots from the blinds when you hit the flop like this one. If someone could help me out with what are the virtues of betting out here versuses check/raising I would be very grateful. (I would probably check/raise btw thinking that it's very likley someone else will bet on that board KQ8 suited, and that K9 is probably the best hand).

[roy_miami]

I would have gone for a checkraise on the flop here. You would have still been facing 2 cold and would have to fold because the pot is tiny, but a flop checkraise is by far the better play here 95% of the time. In this case you would have saved an extra small bet, in most cases you will win an extra full BB when your ahead.

[Irishboy]

Folded almost the exact same hand on party 15/30 yesterday. BB had a weaker king, UTG raised his flush draw, i'm assuming he didn't want anyone calling his draw?!

Anyway, I folded and my kicker would have played.

[NMcNasty]

If you knew beforehand that MP3 was this type of player you would have had to call or possibly reraise.

[DcifrThs]

i see why you posted this as it (folding the winner) is definately annoying.

but i think you made the right play. i'd have done the exact same thing and i can remember times when that fold was "wrong" 'cause it was a winner...it sux...but it happens.

-Barron

[na4bart]

Fold. Why? You are waaay behind.