Touching the pot to count it?

[TheEleven]

Last night I was playing in a friendly home game. Small stakes - $20 buy-in NL sit and go's basically.

Question is: during one hand, heads-up, one player went all-in. The other player in the hand started grabbing at the pot and stacking it to get an accurate count so he could calculate the pot odds. Is this allowable while the hand is live? If not, can the dealer or someone not involved in the hand physically touch the pot to get an accurate count for him?

Like I said, it's a real friendly game, but I was still taken aback that anyone would actually touch the pot while action was still live.

Thoughts?

[Shilly]

I don't think that this is a big deal. He has a right to know how much is in the pot, so that shouldn't be a factor.

If you're worried about players touching the chips while involved in the hand, just agree to have the dealer do it when necessary.

[Riverboat Willie]

I agree with Shilly here, it's almost the exact same answer i would have given.

[jalsing]

While no big deal, I'd still think a player with enough intelligence to use pot odds, could keep track of the pot size...

[alittle]

I tend to agree it's not a big deal, but could see how people might freak out if you just start reaching towards the pot. I think it would be common courtesy to say "I'm going to count the pot" before reaching, so others can watch you do it if they are so inclined. I think you should also state the amount for everyone when done - "it's $3275".

I also agree though that you should have a pretty decent idea of the pot size without having to count it.

[Fins]

I think the pot is totally the dealer's responsibility and only the dealer should handle/count/award etcc... the pot. I also don't think the pot should be counted unless it's accuracy is questioned or your playing pot limit. It's up to the player to keep track if it's important to him.

- Fins

[random]

I always thought this was not allowed. I thought that's why dealers are always knocking stacks over on tv.

[Hedge Henderson]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the pot is totally the dealer's responsibility and only the dealer should handle/count/award etcc... the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose it depends on the game you're playing in and who the dealer is.

In the home game I host (and another I play in), I'm one of perhaps three people who can be trusted to do such things accurately and quickly. Generally, I only step in and count/split the pot when I'm out of a hand, but not always. Between alcohol and the pipe, not everyone at the table (we rotate the deal) is able to, especially if we get into a main pot/side pot situation in Omaha/8.

You know more about your game than we do, TheEleven, but if it's really a friendly game, it's probably no big deal.

[3rdEye]

My friends and I do that all the time. I don't see why anyone should care, unless they're anal.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
My friends and I do that all the time. I don't see why anyone should care, unless they're anal.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, the reason why people care is b/c you aren't supposed to do it. if you can't keep track of the pot mentally, then that person should work on their pot-counting skills. The reason why it isn't allowed is b/c in a casino someone could reach in the pot, count it and palm a chip in the process. This could obviously also happen in a home game. Now, I'm not saying it's likely, but that's why it isn't permissible in a casino. Bottom line is if you can't do it in a casino, then why do it in a home game. But, it's a home game so people can theoretically do whatever they wish within the rules of the house or the host or the tournament rules.

[Hedge Henderson]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line is if you can't do it in a casino, then why do it in a home game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, with a $20-$40 buy-in we can't afford to pay a dealer to do it for us.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line is if you can't do it in a casino, then why do it in a home game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because, with a $20-$40 buy-in we can't afford to pay a dealer to do it for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

What are you talking about? During the course of a game, there is no reason for someone to count the pot....Unless you are playing pot-limit. So, unless you are playing pot-limit, there's no reason to count the pot. Also, if you are playing a home game, then the only person touching the chips in the pot during play should be the "designated dealer" for that hand and if he is involved in the hand, he should not be allowed to count the pot for the reason of knowing how much is in the pot.

[TheEleven]

I do have a tendency to be anal-retentive about such things. Yeah, it is just a home game, and we're all good friends. No danger of cheating or anything. But by the same token, I guess that's what annoyed me - it's a small-stakes home game, was it really necessary to start stacking the pot to get an exact count? You can eyeball a good estimate (or just keep track). I mean would he have folded if he discovered he was getting 2.1 to 1 instead of 2.5 to 1?

I don't know, I guess I just thought it was a weird liberty to take without asking first, for no good reason to boot. But in the future, I'll try to "lighten up Francis..."

[Hedge Henderson]

[ QUOTE ]
...Unless you are playing pot-limit. So, unless you are playing pot-limit, there's no reason to count the pot. Also, if you are playing a home game, then the only person touching the chips in the pot during play should be the "designated dealer" for that hand and if he is involved in the hand, he should not be allowed to count the pot for the reason of knowing how much is in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we often play pot limit, and some dealers count faster (and better) than others. We know who they are.

I'm not trying to recreate the casino experience at the game I host. We generally use casino rules, but we're not near as paranoid as the players in a casino are (not without reason, of course).

I work to create a fair, fun, and friendly game. That's all. People with varying amounts of experience play poker with us, and sloppiness is a continuum. We've had many people who've played poker elsewhere for years sit in on our game. Some complain about how much leeway we give to players who are at the cooler filling drink orders, and some of them complain about how "anal" we are. It all about finding the balance between sloppy "kitchen table" and WSOP that works for your game.

[Stew]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...Unless you are playing pot-limit. So, unless you are playing pot-limit, there's no reason to count the pot. Also, if you are playing a home game, then the only person touching the chips in the pot during play should be the "designated dealer" for that hand and if he is involved in the hand, he should not be allowed to count the pot for the reason of knowing how much is in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, we often play pot limit, and some dealers count faster (and better) than others. We know who they are.

I'm not trying to recreate the casino experience at the game I host. We generally use casino rules, but we're not near as paranoid as the players in a casino are (not without reason, of course).

I work to create a fair, fun, and friendly game. That's all. People with varying amounts of experience play poker with us, and sloppiness is a continuum. We've had many people who've played poker elsewhere for years sit in on our game. Some complain about how much leeway we give to players who are at the cooler filling drink orders, and some of them complain about how "anal" we are. It all about finding the balance between sloppy "kitchen table" and WSOP that works for your game.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I mentioned in my very first post...if it's a home game, then anything goes, so people can setup what sort of rules they wish for their game that fits their philosophy of how a game should be run.

Obviously, if you are playing pot-limit, then the pot has to be counted at times, so I have no problem with that. I just don't understand why there is ever a need to count the pot in any other game. That being the case, why let people count it. It's the way a casino does it, do it at your home game, that just makes life simpler. Call it anal, call it whatever you want. There's just no reason for people to be counting the pot down, end of story. Again, this is just my opinion.

As far as the fact that you have players with varied levels of experience playing and "sloppiness is a continum". If you had rules and forced them to abide by them, they wouldn't be sloppy for long and that's how I feel about that. They may complain or not understand, but if you explain it to them they will and they won't have a problem with it.