Small Stakes Hold'Em question

[Buccaneer]

Chapter Preflop Concepts has a graph titled 'Aggregate Hand Values in EV/BB' on the second page that I do not quite understand. The graph shows 88 as a fairly strong preflop hand. I am assuming that that is because the level of betting has reduced the number remaining in the game but this being a speculative hand would it not be important to keep the number of bets for this hand to see the flop to a minimum?

It also list 23s as not a real powerful hand but as one much more strong than I would have thought. What is the rational in this. I see the possibility of flopping to a straight draw but I would think that if you caught the A then your outs go way down? Can someone who understands please explain?

[K C]

This is my first visit to this forum and I'm not sure what book you're referring to, but here's my take on this. A lot of pre-flop hand analysis comes from no-fold computer simulations. Hands like 88 and 23s are perfect examples of one of the problems such a study entails. These calculations would be great if there wasn't any betting or folding going on, but of course there is, and this affects the EV pretty significantly in a lot of cases.

In a lot of cases you're not going to be able to hang on to these hands to the end of course. So you're folding them in situations where they hit later. In real games, with the 8's at a full table, we're looking to hit a set in order to withstand any real kind of betting pressure with overcards up. And we're folding because we don't have the proper odds to continue with the hand.

23s though just isn't a good hand period IM0. Its the worst of the suited connectors, and pairing either of them does no good really. Any 3 card flush or straight you make will be the worst possible as well. At best, this is only playable on the SB with lots of callers and no raising.

KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

[Vern]

Actually, the chart you refer to is based on a real player database of about 60K hands. 88 is a great hand when played properly. It does well unimproved HU and against maybe 2 opponents and it does well in multiway pots if you play it for the set. You just have to play it properly for the circumstances.

32s shows a negative EV on the chart so I don't know why you think it is listed as stronger than you would have thought. The problems with 32s are numerous but include that it can only make one nut straight, always makes the worst two card flush that can be conterfeited with a 4th suit on board and can never make top pair or middle pair with a kicker that beats the board.

Vern

[Ed Miller]

That chart used a sample size that isn't large enough to differentiate precisely between the values of certain hands. In other words, 32s may not be in the "right" place in that chart... there is significant sampling error associated with the placement of most of those hands.

The purpose of the chart was to show the general shape of the graph (very tall on the left, sloping down quickly to a large number of mediocre and losing hands). The labelled hands are included just as a rudimentary reference.