Evelyn Eng busted out via Runner Runner

[Enecoman]

Glad to see that online players are doing well but sucking out a flush with runner runner on an all-in 66 vs. AK is weak.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Glad to see that online players are doing well but sucking out a flush with runner runner on an all-in 66 vs. AK is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is weak, the best hand held up in an all in situation, and that is all that happened.

[CCx]

You could also try the correct spelling of her name in your topic next time, that's pretty weak. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Enecoman]

another malcontent here trying to pick an arguement over nothing. If you want to argue that 66 make an all-on off a re-raise of 72K, go ahead. I am sure you will find plenty of people to fight with.

I am constantly amazed at how people will jump on other posters at the drop of a hat.

Anytime you want a game bring it.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]

I am constantly amazed at how people will jump on other posters at the drop of a hat.


[/ QUOTE ]

You made a post that was just plain wrong. The better hand held up, no suckout here.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
another malcontent here trying to pick an arguement over nothing. If you want to argue that 66 make an all-on off a re-raise of 72K, go ahead. I am sure you will find plenty of people to fight with.

I am constantly amazed at how people will jump on other posters at the drop of a hat.

Anytime you want a game bring it.

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, the title of your post was clearly deceptive because all of the money got in preflop.
Second of all, you do not know enough about the context of the hand (stack sizes, previous raises, etc.) to make any kind of judgement about whether the play was correct.

[Enecoman]

a. He had no idea what she had. IMO going all-in off a re-raise of 72K with 66 is a horrible play.

b. Since an A did in fact hit on the flop, the 66 was a huge dog.

that about covers it.

[stabn]

There's a lot of things he could have done better. Like maybe not calling it runner runner when either of her sixes would have won it for her as well.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
a. He had no idea what she had. IMO going all-in off a re-raise of 72K with 66 is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well maybe its a bad play, maybe not, but thats not possible to determine unless you were there.

[ QUOTE ]
b. Since an A did in fact hit on the flop, the 66 was a huge dog.


[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant, money was all in preflop.

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
b. Since an A did in fact hit on the flop, the 66 was a huge dog.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't matter. All of the money got in preflop, when he was a slight favorite.
Or maybe you think that the order of the cards matter, in which case you are an idiot.

[Enecoman]

if the intent of his post was to have a dialog about those issues that would have been cool since that is what a DISCUSSION board is all about. Instead he decided to call me names because he thinks I dont understand that a pp is 52% fav. Which isnt relevant to my post at all. We have the gift of hindsight and the A did in fact fall. IMO that is a bad beat.

I am way tired of people attacking others on this board. I see it all the time. What exactly is the point anyway?

[slickpoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
We have the gift of hindsight and the A did in fact fall. IMO that is a bad beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
So let's say that there is a two way all-in preflop with AA v. KK and the flop comes K75, but then the turn and river are QA. Is that a bad beat for the KK? That is basically what you are saying but mentioning the fact that an A hit on the flop.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

IMO that is a bad beat.


[/ QUOTE ]
A hand that gets all the money in preflop, as a coinflip, can never end with a bad beat.

[Enecoman]

it is entirely relevant when you hold AK and lose. lol

it may not be the worst beat ever but I guarantee if that was you we would all be in agreement.

thanks to all the wealth of teaching guys. It sure makes me want to post here often.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

thanks to all the wealth of teaching guys. It sure makes me want to post here often.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you post more often you might learn the definition of 'bad beat'.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
it may not be the worst beat ever but I guarantee if that was you we would all be in agreement.


[/ QUOTE ]

I guarantee that I would say the same about the outcome.

[BarronVangorToth]

No one likes to lose ... but I think the point was that if the money had gone on the flop AFTER the Ace had hit -- that is a lot of a worse "beat" than random almost-equal hands going all in preflop and seeing what happens....

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Enecoman]

since 66 is 52% fav over AK and AA is 80% fav over KK that is not even a close comparison. I am certain that EE took into account that the better might hold a small PP and raised anyway. In reverse the person holding 66 could have easily been up against a variety of hands that had him smoked. the best case scenario was a slight edge. IMO that is WAY too big of a risk.

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

IMO that is a bad beat.


[/ QUOTE ]
A hand that gets all the money in preflop, as a coinflip, can never end with a bad beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? Suppose I get all-in against you with my AK against your QQ. Let's say the flop comes Q55. The turn is a 5, and so is the river. Not a bad beat?

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

In reverse the person holding 66 could have easily been up against a variety of hands that had him smoked. the best case scenario was a slight edge. IMO that is WAY too big of a risk.


[/ QUOTE ]

The sixes put in the last raise and had folding equity. You also know 0 about how she'd been playing. Maybe she was palying really laggy, maybe she'd been laying down a lot of hands to reraises. Poker hands don't live in a vacuum.

[Enecoman]

agreed.

I am fine with all the points. I am not fine with people attackeing me (or anyone else for that matter) for posting.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

Really? Suppose I get all-in against you with my AK against your QQ. Let's say the flop comes Q55. The turn is a 5, and so is the river. Not a bad beat?


[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, i don't really think that's a bad beat. It's part of why AK vs QQ is a coinflip.

[stabn]

Maybe it was the tone of your origional post?

[Enecoman]

I wasnt aware that there was an actual definition. Please advise. lol

[Freudian]

You can't seriously arguing that the ace falling on the flop and the runner-runner isn't the same thing when the money goes in preflop? Neither of them had any impact when the money went in.

[slickpoppa]

The reason i "attacked" you for your original post was because you criticized someone's play of a hand without having enough information to justify the criticism. Furthermore, the tone of you original post indicated that it was an "attack" on the person who reraised all-in with 66

[Enecoman]

my intent was only to point that for the most part (with limited info, as you pointed out) it appears that the amateurs have played well except in this case. Since that person isnt here how can that be considered an attack?? on the other hand I am here and people did decide to make this personal. The exact same things could have been said without the words IDIOT, etc etc.

[BarronVangorToth]

I agree that personal attacks have no business on this site.

Hopefully you didn't see my response as such an attack.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
my intent was only to point that for the most part (with limited info, as you pointed out) it appears that the amateurs have played well except in this case.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you come to the conclusion that he didn't play well in this case. He got his money in with the best of it. How is that, using your own phrase, "weak"?

[B Dids]

The issue here is that your post displays a fundamental misunderstanding of tournament poker on several levels. You simply cannot expect not to catch some heat if you're going to make a post containing multiple flawed statements.

Also, you can't sign up for a message board 2 days ago, and then start making posts bitching about the tone. Each board has it's own flavor, and you're not getting nearly the abuse that some people get. Take some time, learn the layout of the land, and A- you might understand why you're wrong B- you might understand that you're not getting attacked at all.

[cwsiggy]

The real shame is we won't be able to see that beauty on the final table broadcast!!!

[slickpoppa]

she's a but-her-face

[Enecoman]

this has gone so far past the issue.

I have been reading here for about 6 months. I have seen people berate others daily.

Since the post was an opinion, how can it contain flaws???

[Enecoman]

if he knew he was a favorite it certainly wouldnt be would it. How about if she holds AA or KK. Heck what if she holds 9s? The re-raise was a big one.

[Enecoman]

since I play tournament poker daily please enlighten me.

[B Dids]

Because your opinion is obviously based on a misunderstanding of poker. What has been repeated in this thread, is that we simply don't have enough information to even HAVE an opinion, so suggesting that you do is evidence that you don't know what you're talking about.

If you've honestly been reading for 6 months, and still don't understand this, you need to like, read better or something.

[Enecoman]

If that were the criteria than the only people posting in this section would be people on the WPT. Yes, I fully understand that MANY factors go into a decision like this one. It is quite possible it was a great call given the info available. As I said, it was only my opinion.

For you and some others to assume I dont understand these things is insulting. If I said these same things to you about something you wrote how would you take that?

I am quite sure neither one of us has any idea about which one of us knows more about poker based on this discussion.

[TimTimSalabim]

I find it amusing that people think that because somebody happened to get all their money in as a small favorite that it was automatically a good play.

[Enecoman]

these would be the same people busting out early in many events. I agree.

and BTW that was a best case scenario.

[B Dids]

If you know this

[ QUOTE ]
If that were the criteria than the only people posting in this section would be people on the WPT. Yes, I fully understand that MANY factors go into a decision like this one. It is quite possible it was a great call given the info available.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then how can you pretend of even offer an opinion. That's the point.

[Freudian]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it amusing that people think that because somebody happened to get all their money in as a small favorite that it was automatically a good play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed it would be. Now no one has claimed that. People have only questioned someone coming to the conclusion that it was "weak" since the only information we have is that the one making the supposed "weak" play was a slight favourite when the money went in.

[Enecoman]

I thought that was what the board was for. Am I wrong?

[B Dids]

I would hope that this board is NOT for offering opinions that you admit are baseless.

You: OMG THAT'S DUMB

Us: YOU DON'T KNOW ENOUGH TO SAY THAT'S DUMB

You: I KNOW THAT, BUT I STILL THINK IT'S DUMB

Moreover, if you want to continue to offer opinions that ignore reality- you shouldn't get your drawers all bunched up when somebody points that out.

[TimTimSalabim]

No, we have information that the 66 went all-in after a large reraise by the AK. That's usually a bad idea, although I too would want more info about the stack sizes and precise action before making a final conclusion. But based on all the info presented so far, it seems more likely to have been a bad play than a good one.

[Enecoman]

ok, lets not jump to wrong conclusions. My opinion was not baseless. We do indeed know that he was re-raised 70K (12 BB) holding 66. We also know aprox how many total chips they both had at that point.

Also, that was not even the primary intent of my post at all. the first reason I posted was informative (perhaps other people dont know what happened at PSCA). Second, it appeared to me to be an amateur call. Maybe I shouldnt have said "weak". In my mind that is symantics. I would be curious to know what Evelyn Ng or her coach (Negraneau) would have to say about the call. maybe you would respect their opinion.

[Freudian]

How do you know? We don't know anything about the range of hands Evelyn Ng raised with, how likely she was to fold to a re-raise, pot size, stack size or what hands she would be likely to call an all-in with.

You don't have even close to the information needed to make a "likely" guess here.

[razor]

[ QUOTE ]
Since the post was an opinion, how can it contain flaws???

[/ QUOTE ]

opinions can't be wrong?

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
Anytime you want a game bring it.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
if the intent of his post was to have a dialog about those issues that would have been cool since that is what a DISCUSSION board is all about. Instead he decided to call me names because he thinks I dont understand that a pp is 52% fav. Which isnt relevant to my post at all. We have the gift of hindsight and the A did in fact fall. IMO that is a bad beat.

I am way tired of people attacking others on this board. I see it all the time. What exactly is the point anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]

When exectly were you called a name?

I'll throw in; yer a moron.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
since I play tournament poker daily please enlighten me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gentlemen, we have found our dead money.

[Rocaix]

Enecoman has managed to turn this thread into a huge pissing match.

Where's that arguing on the internet is like running the special olympics picture when you need it.

[judgesmails]

Money in pre-flop. 66 held up vs. AK. The hand description tells me that AK needed the chips, 66 did not. Big deal. Having played a number of cash sessions with Ev, I can tell you she is very weak-tight, and I would call her all-inn for 50% of my chips with 66 withough knowing anything more.

[etizzle]

Why would you call all-in with 66 against a weak tight player? Wouldn't a weak player be more likely to hold a big hand when they push all of their chips in?

[Enecoman]

Both had big stacks but she needed it more for sure. If what you said about her is true than that would have a huge impact on the decision.

I apologize if I offended anyone. That was not my intent.

[judgesmails]

I read the action on the blog. Ev raise, 66 re-raise, Ev all-in. If I have her covered by 2x, I call in a heartbeat. She is pot-committed and has to try to muscle me out. If I lose, I am still able to come back. If stacks are different, I don't call her initial raise.

[Enecoman]

"Debora raised preflop to $22K (blinds were 3000/6000). Ng made it $72K to go. Debora pushed all in."

- from the blog

[krazyace5]

Its "semantics".

[etizzle]

According to the orginal poster you are getting the action wrong. I think this is pretty important.

[Jim T]

The problem is the title of the thread. I read that and think that she got all her money in after the flop, and the person who busted her out had to get two cards running to beat her.

That was not the case at all. My first reaction was irritation as well. Please learn how to describe a poker hand in a way that resembles the actual action. Your post was like reading the NY Times (and no, that's not a compliment). Whether you meant to be misleading or not is irrelevant.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is the title of the thread. I read that and think that she got all her money in after the flop, and the person who busted her out had to get two cards running to beat her.

That was not the case at all. My first reaction was irritation as well. Please learn how to describe a poker hand in a way that resembles the actual action. Your post was like reading the NY Times (and no, that's not a compliment). Whether you meant to be misleading or not is irrelevant.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[Hack]

You are such an idiot.

So if I have AA and someone has 77 and the board comes 752 and I river an Ace then that is a bad beat and I sucked out on the sevens?

[niin]

[ QUOTE ]
a. He had no idea what she had. IMO going all-in off a re-raise of 72K with 66 is a horrible play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not if 66 was short-stacked and suspected she had overcards, or if his previous raise pot-committed the 66; you didn't explain anything about chip stack sizes, # players at the table, etc. All of that information is important. Just saying 'calling an all-in with 66 is horrible' is, well, short-sighted.

[ QUOTE ]
b. Since an A did in fact hit on the flop, the 66 was a huge dog.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant. The money was in pre-flop, so the odds were 55/45 or so in favor of the 66.

That about covers it.