Do I just suck at limit ring games?

[WarDekar]

Playing some 1/2 HE to roll over a bonus. Buy-in with $100 at 4 tables, within 90 minutes I have lost $75. Normally rolling over bonuses I do alright, up until this current streak I've been slightly up on 1/2 HE (rather small sample, 1,000-1,500 hands maybe). My last bonus ($100, 500 hand rollover) was yesterday I cleared it in about 2.5 hours 4-tabling, I was down $30 or so actually playing, and now I'm not even half-way done clearing another 500 hands and I'm down $75.

I realize swings in this game are massive, but I have a feeling it might also be partially a leak in my game. No high PPs are holding for me, people with ridiculous hands are winning pots left and right, maybe I'm just not cut out for ring low-limit? I do well in SNGs, although that's a completely different game, and used to do well in ring, but I just can't seem to do well now.

Is 1/2 HE really all that profitable for people in general?
One thing in particular that has been bothering me, what do you raise with PF in a 1/2 HE game such as this? I've been only raising QQ-AA (JJ, maybe 1010 if I'm LP with no callers), and AKs. I've been getting well-beaten with my AKs so far, and my QQ-KK usually.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
but I have a feeling it might also be partially a leak in my game.... I've been only raising QQ-AA (JJ, maybe 1010 if I'm LP with no callers), and AKs.

[/ QUOTE ]

The ship is sinking. Just kidding, tight pfring alone isn't the reason you are losing, but in general, you probabaly are a bit too conservative given your SnG background. It'll take some effort, but 1-2 is easily beatable. Go buy SSHE and start posting if you desire to get better, because you will if you put in the time.

[eric5148]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing in particular that has been bothering me, what do you raise with PF in a 1/2 HE game such as this? I've been only raising QQ-AA (JJ, maybe 1010 if I'm LP with no callers), and AKs. I've been getting well-beaten with my AKs so far, and my QQ-KK usually.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoa! I was about to give you the ol' sample size line when I read this. Looks like you need to do some studying. Post hands you don't think you played well in the Micro forum.

[WarDekar]

Should I really be raising much more than that in these games? I'll raise AKo sometimes, but I've definitely been limping with any other AQ-AT. Any links to threads that post good recs on hands to raise in these games? I'm pretty confident I'm playing reasonably well post-flop, and my starting hand selection has been alright I think. Granted, it's been a few years since I've played full ring HE, so maybe I'm just out of touch.

[WarDekar]

I don't normally play ring HE as I said, but is it worth it to buy PokerTracker given that the ONLY time I play ring HE is to roll over bonuses?

[eric5148]

Yes.

[Munga30]

I'm not familiar with PT's tournament capabilites, but there are some.

I say buy it. It's only a half a bonus.

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
Buy-in with $100 at 4 tables,

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's a thought. Until you can prove to yourself that you can beat a limit game, stick to no more than 2 tables.

b

[tripdad]

the issue, as i see it, isn't the small sample size. the issue here is your ability to emotionally handle the downswings that are inevitable. what you have experienced is a weekly, if not daily, occurance for most regular players. if you are going to question your ability every time something like this happens, you should stop playing. you'll give yourself an ulcer.

cheers!

[bernie]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty confident I'm playing reasonably well post-flop, and my starting hand selection has been alright I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given what you've said in your initial post, I doubt it. Start with preflop play. Not just the hands you pick to come in with, but how to play the hands. Then build from there.

b

[WarDekar]

I don't really care if I can beat it, I know I'm not going to lose 50 BB in 500 hands ($100 bonus, 500 hands for it). I'm 4-tabling so I can get done and go back to my bread and butter of SNGs.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
No high PPs are holding for me, people with ridiculous hands are winning pots left and right, maybe I'm just not cut out for ring low-limit?

[/ QUOTE ]

examine this sentence carefully to see why your thinking is flawed.

[WarDekar]

I completely understand downswings are a part of this game, I have awful downswings with SNGs all the time and just play through them. The reason I posted about this is because I don't play much ring HE and am looking to plug any major leaks I have early. I don't have much desire to learn to beat 1/2 ring for much, as I do well with SNGs and don't particularly care for ring anyway. Just trying to keep as much of my bonus as possible.

[DeeJ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll raise AKo sometimes

[/ QUOTE ]

Always always raise AKo unless you meet a rock who only raises with KK/AA. PokerTracker can tell you who these people are. Try getting Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold'em and when you've got that all understood go to Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller and HoldEm for Advanced Players by David Sklansky.

If you master the wisdom in all of those you'll be asking different questions on the forum. How hard can it be?? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

and yes, post hands. People may well eat you alive but you get to learn from your mistakes /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[WarDekar]

What, that I think those people ARE cut out for the game? Definitely not. Am I cut out for it? Probably not. That's why I play SNGs mostly and only play this to roll over my bonuses.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
What, that I think those people ARE cut out for the game? Definitely not. Am I cut out for it? Probably not. That's why I play SNGs mostly and only play this to roll over my bonuses.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you really felt this way then why even make this post in the first place?

[WarDekar]

I think my problem has been looking at 1/2 ring as level 1 of a SNG, where I normally won't raise AKo because the risk just isn't worth the reward. Takes a bit to get back into ring games I guess.

[Withen]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I really be raising much more than that in these games? I'll raise AKo sometimes, but I've definitely been limping with any other AQ-AT. Any links to threads that post good recs on hands to raise in these games? I'm pretty confident I'm playing reasonably well post-flop, and my starting hand selection has been alright I think. Granted, it's been a few years since I've played full ring HE, so maybe I'm just out of touch.

[/ QUOTE ]

BUY ME (http://www.twoplustwo.com/books.html#Small%20Stakes%20Hold'em)

[BottlesOf]

You need to buy and read and study and worship Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller.

[WarDekar]

Because as I said lower in the thread, I want to keep as much of my bonuses as possible. I don't plan on spending a ton of time with ring, but enough to where it'd probably be in my interest to improve.

[Malcom Reynolds]

You're the rockiest rock of tightness there is. Even if you only consider early position. Early position raising hands are something like 99-AA, AKs, AKo, AQs, AQo, AJs, AJo, ATs. Don't get me started on how many hands are possible in late position, especially when opening.

Do you see why you need to do a lot of studying if you are this flawed preflop?

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
I completely understand downswings are a part of this game, I have awful downswings with SNGs all the time and just play through them. The reason I posted about this is because I don't play much ring HE and am looking to plug any major leaks I have early. I don't have much desire to learn to beat 1/2 ring for much, as I do well with SNGs and don't particularly care for ring anyway. Just trying to keep as much of my bonus as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

how are we supposed to help you plug leaks when we have no earthly idea how you play your hands? preflop play is simply a foundation to build upon...a terrific player can play much looser before the flop than than the average joe. you ask in your original post whether you just suck at limit, then list a couple no-brainer preflop raising hands. put it this way, if you are sticking to such a small range of hands preflop to raise with, and the rest of your game is just as predictable...yeah, you would be easy to beat in ring play.

cheers!

[WarDekar]

Wow, guess I have been playing way too tight if that is true. Guess I've been WAY too used to SNG early play where you want to raise only very premium hands.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No high PPs are holding for me, people with ridiculous hands are winning pots left and right, maybe I'm just not cut out for ring low-limit?


[/ QUOTE ]

as i said before, when you realize why this statement is flawed, you'll be a whole lot better for it.

[WarDekar]

[ QUOTE ]
and the rest of your game is just as predictable...yeah, you would be easy to beat in ring play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I came looking for advice, and I've already gotten some good advice, thanks. But as far as the above statement, while that may be true to someone that KNOWS I'm predictable, the vast vast majority of players on PP don't pay attention that much do they? I would think very very few players actually make notes about other players and adjust much at all.

[WarDekar]

I would imagine the "people with ridiculous hands" shouldn't be in the hand to win, but how else can you get them out other than getting money in every chance you have? Do you mean something else?

[Number4]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, guess I have been playing way too tight if that is true. Guess I've been WAY too used to SNG early play where you want to raise only very premium hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Also, if you like the tourneys so much, don't bother with the bonus; just because it's there doesn't mean you have to do it. Buy PT and read SSHE if you want to improve at the ring games.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and the rest of your game is just as predictable...yeah, you would be easy to beat in ring play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I came looking for advice, and I've already gotten some good advice, thanks. But as far as the above statement, while that may be true to someone that KNOWS I'm predictable, the vast vast majority of players on PP don't pay attention that much do they? I would think very very few players actually make notes about other players and adjust much at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

you are probably correct in your assumption, but a good player...there is always 1 or 2 at your table...will eat you alive.

cheers!

[WarDekar]

Don't bother with the bonuses? I've been 4-tabling $20 SNGs for about a $20/hr rate. I can get a $100 bonus, roll it over in 3 hours, that's $33/hr assuming I don't lose any, and say I do lose some I can still lose all the way up to $40 and still make the same hourly rate as SNGs, and it offers a nice break (for a SNG downswing like I'm experiencing now, breaks are really nice).

[Chris Daddy Cool]

what i mean is that the impression i got from your post is that you played a couple thousand hands and weren't satisfied with your results and seem to be ranting a bit.

people with ridiculous hands winning is a classic steaming comment, like "how could you call my raise with JTo?" but realize that you BENEFIT when ridiculous hands are in there with you when you have AA and KK and such.

also you're too tight/passive preflop. JJ and TT are auto-raises from any position. as are AK-ATs, AQo, KQs, KJs, and usually AJo and KQo. this may seem to be a lot of chip spewing especailly if you have a deep SNG background, but in limit hold'em, it's all about the theoretical dollars you're winning with every edge you can push. the results will take care of themselves.

[WarDekar]

FWIW, I ended this $100 bonus down $34 playing, under 3 hours to clear. Previous bonuses I've either been down less, or up less, right below even playing ring HE for bonuses.

[WarDekar]

Oh, obviously it's better for me in the long run to have those people in the hands, I thought that was implied. But anyway, yeah I think I have to loosen up a LOT with this game compared to SNGs. I won a couple decent sized pots just now with A-high on hands that actually had bets from other people (I had a couple overcards I saw as live outs and a flush draw which didn't hit, but ended up taking the pot anyway).

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I really be raising much more than that in these games?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you suck at limit ring. But it doesn't have to be that way. Study posts here in the limit forums, read a book or two. 1/2 isn't that hard.

[WarDekar]

Been doing quite a bit better now that I've loosened up quite a bit. Bought PT today (still waiting for my registration) so that should help out. What kind of BB/100 is reasonable for someone in my position? How about a "seasoned" 1/2 player?

[Fnord]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't really care if I can beat it, I know I'm not going to lose 50 BB in 500 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

LMAO!

-30BB swings are a regular occurance for me. -50 is nothing to freak about.

[WarDekar]

?? The point is I'm playing ring for the bonus. Show me a person that consistently loses anywhere CLOSE to 50BB per 500 hands and I will be looking at the worst poker player ever.