after limp-reraising AA...

[willie24]

i've just arrived at this table. i haven't regularly played NL on this site in over a month, so i have no reads. (except that the table in general is passive...and leaning slightly towards tight.) this is the highest NL game going at the moment at this particular site.

MP1 has $167. BB has $85. hero has both covered.
NL holdem, $1 BB. 7 handed.
Hero is UTG with AA

Hero calls. folded to MP1 who raises to $2. folded to BB who calls. Hero raises to $10. MP1 calls. BB folds.

flop: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($20.80)

Hero bets $15. MP1 calls.

turn: 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif ($49.30)

hero checks, MP1 checks.

river: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ($49.30)

hero checks, MP1 bets $20, hero calls.

comments please. (i may be a little bit rusty at NL)

[amoeba]

its one of those, I think I am beat but I call anyways things.

[krazyace5]

I guess I don't get why you slowed down on the turn here. Villain could have AK AQ, lots of hands you have beat, why the check on the turn?

[willie24]

the turn check is basically the reason for the post. i think it was right but i am not sure. it's what i want feedback on.

my reasoning:

1. it is obvious that I have AA. I expect my opponent to assume that i have AA, especially if i bet 3/4 the pot on the turn.

2. there is no draw that i fear. i am okay with giving a free card.

3. MP1 called the flop. to me this means one of a couple things: he is very weak relative to me (AK or AQ or non-set PP) or he is slowplaying QQ or maybe even KK or KQ, (though both are less likely), or he has JJ and has made a set on the turn. if he is weak he will likely fold to the turn bet, if he is strong i will end up allin on the turn.

4. MP1 may have AK, which is semi-strong but way behind me. If he does have AK, i think he will bet the turn after i check, thus betting my hand for me. he may even bet my hand for me with AQ or 77.


so in general, i check because i want to keep the pot relatively small. i think i am more likely to lose an allin than win one...and i think i am more likely to win a (relatively) small pot than lose one.

since i believe that i do not especially need to protect my hand from being outdrawn, i think i gain more from the petty bets i gain by letting him bet the turn (and the bets i save by letting him make small bets with monsters) than i gain from betting big and getting called by say- AK (but also getting put allin by QQQ).

[Tilt]

Id make a bigger bet on the flop and then smash the turn again with a pot sized bet. If he calls those I might be convinced by then to slow down if I am not too committed.

[CheckFold]

I think there's a decent chance that your opponent did not put you on AA and partially suspects some random move on your part. So from the minraise and 'oh-what-the hell' call of a big reraise preflop I could see an online player having something like KJ, meaning he could well have 9 outs on the turn.

This isn't pot limit, so I'm not so sure of the merits of keeping the pot small...were you prepared to call any sized bet on the turn? I think your chances of losing him on the turn are pretty small given the flop call and the chance that you actually do want to protect your hand are greater than you think.

[willie24]

good points.

yes i was prepared to call an allin on the turn...knowing that MP1 would probably only go allin with AK, 99, or something like KJ...TT.

i was prepared to fold should MP1 bet small on the turn and huge on the river

[willie24]

NOTE: when writing this post i mistakenly said that JJ made a set on the turn, when in fact it would have on the river.

so JJ falls under the category of hands the opponent might have that will fold on the turn (rather than put me allin on the turn)

[willie24]

also- to further clarify this:

i went through my thoughts on a lot of possible hands- but i should mention that 3 the hands I expect to see MOST OFTEN are: AK, QQ, and AQ.

i don't know if this assumption is right or not. it's what i was thinking at the time.

[CheckFold]

I really wouldn't expect to see AK or QQ given the preflop line. Possibly AQ, but really the hands I expect most often are KQ, KJ, AJ.

[willie24]

who calls a 2x pot limp-reraise with AJ or KJ? not saying it doesn't happen, just...i could believe a miniraise with AK or QQ more easily.

[CheckFold]

I'm not sure which game this was in, but I've seen this type of behavior numerous times on Party with hands like A4o or 97o. Calling that limp reraise with AJ or KJ wouldn't necessarily make me label that player as particularly loose or bad for the party 100NL 6 max.

[kongo_totte]

[ QUOTE ]


1. it is obvious that I have AA. I expect my opponent to assume that i have AA, especially if i bet 3/4 the pot on the turn.


4. MP1 may have AK, which is semi-strong but way behind me. If he does have AK, i think he will bet the turn after i check, thus betting my hand for me. he may even bet my hand for me with AQ or 77.



[/ QUOTE ]
These 2 points can't both be true, can they? However, revealing your A A on the turn by betting isn't the end of the world. The pot is big enough and I would be glad to take it home right there. I would bet out on the turn every day of the week. His most likely holdings as I see it are infact A K or A Q. A K may also call your $35 bet on the turn. Also, I wouldn't say that the board is drawless. A J, AT, K J Q J are not impossible holdings.

[lapoker17]

You essentially played the hand correctly. One pair is one pair, and you were right to want to keep the pot smallish. With that board, AA doesn't look great. I think your line was fine - especially with no reads. I see KQ here a lot.

[NORM77]

Im a fan of the book super system, and in the No Limit section Doyle Brunson advocates going all in on the flop after getting quite a bit of $ in the pot preflop so that you dont out guess your self on later steets... Does this apply to this situation at all or is this way of thinking outdated?

[Tilt]

I havent read it in a while, but I think thats the way he advocates playing KK, not AA.

Its not an awful approach if you think gamblers will call with a draw. But it depends on stack size and table image. At most low stakes tables this is a tell. I prefer betting 1/2 the pot and hoping someone comes over the top or c/r all-in if the stacks are not too large.

[kongo_totte]

Brunsons states in SS, that if he gets more than half of his stack in PF w/ AA or KK ( I think it applies to both, but I´m not sure) the rest is going in on the flop. So I guess that does not apply in this hand anyway.

[willie24]

MP1 showed Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for a straight.

CHECKFOLD was right- MP1 had a number of outs on the turn, and he wisely checked behind rather than betting his drawing hand.

he pretty much let me off the hook on the river.

looking back on the hand i still don't know if i can see a better way to play it. of course i would push if i knew he had QT...but i still think that the check was OK. I think the times I am beaten outnumber the times MP1 has a decent draw...and when i am ahead of a non-drawing hand (AK, AQ) the check is only slightly less profitable than a bet.

one mistake i think i made: giving my opponent too much credit for being tight by default (without having a read).

[zepmetal]

I feel that when you clearly define your hand, as you did preflop with the kimp-reraise, you need to make sure your opponent isnt getting odds to draw to a hand with a pp or a suited connector. If your opponent is solid, he can play a pp or suited connector for only $10 when youve both got $160 behind and be makingna profitable play, since he knows you have AA/KK. I personally don't like limp-reraising anymore unless the table has been very aggro, or my stack is small enough to get it all in before the flop and maybe get called by some junk (TT, AQ etc.). So basicaly, open raise preflop (hey, maybe theyll comeover the top with KK/QQ or AK here, then they make a terrible mistake calling your allin preflop) or come over the top for more than $10.

There is one exception, and that is if you occationaly limp-reraise to ~$10 with non AA/KK hands, then your hand isnt as clearly defined. But I dont advocate that play, and I dont think youve been doing that anyways.