deep JJ

[edtost]

.25/.5 home game, i have ~120, CO has 60-70, button has about the same as me. both players are tricky/thinking, and the button is a very good player with whom i've played lots of hands. we're 6-handed at the moment, with me 2 off the button.

utg does something and myself and CO limp. button makes it 2.50 and i bump it up to 10, called by CO and button, who are both fairly aggressive postflop.

the flop is rags (8 or 9 high, no real draws, although button could have any two, basically.)

i check, intending to raise a bet and make a decision if its raised to me. i am not overly worried about them giving a free card to my missed ak. unfortunately for them, i actually have jj and would really like to not see the turn with an awkwardly large pot, which a bet will not accomplish.

CO checks, and the button bets 20. i think for a second, curse my stack size, and make it 60.

button thinks for a while, commenting "you know i have an overpair, and you do that anyway?" and "what did you do that with, kings? no, it must be jacks," and folds his TT.

thoughts, particularly on the flop c-r attempt?

[tbach24]

heres an instance where being out of position will be to your advantage. think of how you felt having a weak overpair with JJ, and how hard you had to protect that. he is trying to protect HIS hand that much more with TT, and figures that right now only a set can beat him, or possibly someone who just called with JJ or QQ. if you lead out on this flop, he will definitely make a solid sized raise, and to that, you can push all in, which he will either lay down, and that nets you a much larger pot, or he will call, with two outs. both moves are more +EV than what you accomplished with your checkraise. if you read super system by doyle brunson, the bible of poker, written by arguably the best player ever, he says, "i RARELY check-raise." theres a reason for this, its not a good play to overuse, it should be a trick up your sleeve, not a standard play for NL.

[edtost]

did i mention that i was folding to a push? i'm not gettting all my money in (vs this opponent, on a drawless board) without being massively behind. also, he will very rarely raise my flop bet when i'm ahead and he isn't making a move with nothing, probably only with a9 and TT, which he will likely lay down. also, we both make enough moves preflop in this game that rando two pair is very much not out of the question for either one of us.

edit: also, doyle's opponents were orders of magnitude weaker, more passive, and worse hand readers than the villain here.

[amoeba]

so you are saying your opponent is better than pro caliber but playing .25/.50 ?

also, why the limp reraise to 10 preflop? you can't call a rereraise and if he calls and an A, K, or Q flops, you aren't comfortable.also, you run the risk of it being checked through and something like AXs hitting an A.

[edtost]

doyle's opponents before s/s came out were, by and large, not very good and tending towards weak/tight. neither of us really care about this money, i play in 2/5 games live, and he usually plays 15/30 limit on party, last i heard. our home game is a good, cheap way for us to get experience playing on deep stacks vs thinking opponents.

[DoubleDown]

[ QUOTE ]
did i mention that i was folding to a push?

[/ QUOTE ]

at what point were you expecting villain to push?

if he pushed when the flop was checked to him? the only hands he could have that could beat you are QQ KK AA, or a set. why would he push all-in, if you check to him ... wouldnt he rather value-bet?

if he pushes after your C/R, he can't be pushing with much as he had 60-70 before the hand, there was a hefty PFR, and you've now C/R'ed to 60 ... your C/R has nearly put him all in anyway, no?

[amoeba]

well, I am not going to comment on the caliber of doyle's opponents but I still very much dislike your limp reraise with JJ out of position.you are building the pot when a lot of the times you aren't comfortable playing that big a pot.

If an overcard flops, button doesn't even need to have the overcard in question to take the pot away from you.

[amoeba]

villain had around 120 I believe. But yes, your logic is valid.

[edtost]

villain was the button, not the cutoff. his stack was similar to mine at the start of the hand, around $120. if he was as short as the CO, with 60-70, i play the hand completely differently.

[amoeba]

I still don't see why you want to play for almost all of your stack with JJ on that flop.

You do realize that TT is the only overpair higher than 8 that you beat right?

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
if he pushed when the flop was checked to him? the only hands he could have that could beat you are QQ KK AA, or a set. why would he push all-in, if you check to him ... wouldnt he rather value-bet?


[/ QUOTE ]

not that i was expecting it, but an open push with top set would've been a heckuva play, if he thought i would call it, like, ever. and villain was certainly capable of third-level thinking. against your average party poker or casino idiot, this hand is much easier to play.

[edtost]

what would you suggest i do, check-fold? or bet/fold, or bet/reraise? and which turn cards do i want to see, besides another jack?

edit: also, if i bet and get called and an undercard comes, i'm stuck calling down his raise, which blows.

[amoeba]

first of all, if you did not limp reraise preflop, the pot would not be too big to get away from.

secondly, yes, bet -fold to reraise after betting out preflop instead of limp reraising.

the way you played it, your flop check raise will fold out hands you beat and have only hands that beat you call.

Sure you gain the extra 20 the times he has Ak, TT, KQ, but you lose 2/3 your stack the times he has set or higher overpair.

[edtost]

first of all, his raise-call pf line means he could have any two cards. and he will bet when checked to with a wide variety of those. also, i clearly wasn't expecting him to lay down a hand as strong as his, particularly with my loose image at the time.

[amoeba]

so I'm confused here, so earlier you say you would have folded to a flop push after your check raise but now you say you didn't expect him to fold a holding like TT?

So do you know him so well that you know he would only call your check raise with TT and not push?

once again, the fact that you can't call a push makes your flop check raise worthless. you don't get any value.

It seems that you only want validation of your play.

[Wayfare]

Ameoba,

Trust me, the players in this game are very very good. Some are better than I am by a lot. This is the game where I learned to play; don't be fooled by the low blinds. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[amoeba]

I am sure these players are good. I've read EdTost's posts as well as DrPublo's who I assume played in this game.

I still don't agree with that flop move. I think when everyone is very aggressive, its not that great to overplay your hand and I think HERO overplayed JJ here.

I really don't see what the flop check raise accomplishes aside from repping a much stronger hand than HERO had.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
I really don't see what the flop check raise accomplishes aside from repping a much stronger hand than HERO had.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why I could fold to a push. But because we both get tricky/aggressive often, I thought he might decide to call down with a marginal holding, letting me fire the second barrel on the turn.

Also, I concede that this may not have been the best play, but I also don't think it is as patently bad as many of the posters here make it out to be, like it would be against a less skilled opponent.

Discussions just get more interesting when I argue vehemently for what I did. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

and dave, villain was sammy, as i'm sure you deduced from how the hand played out. publo would've paid off like a broken slot machine there.

[Wayfare]

I really don't think the limp reraise is necessary in this case. I would like to disguise JJ with these stack sizes so you can hammer him with a check raise on the flop or turn that doesn't put your whole stack at risk.

If you don't raise preflop and then bet out this flop, you are going to get raised. If you check/call this flop and then lead the turn you might keep him along for the ride. Check raising the turn on a nice card would represent a set and probably fold out most holdings.

With your image though, check calling flop and turn and then betting river would be a viable line too.

I'm not sure if your check raise on the flop in this hand was a value check raise or an information check raise, or a little of both. What muddles it all is the limp reraise with JJ in MP.

[amoeba]

I don't disagree with the flop move that much, I still dislike the limp reraise preflop a bit more.

If you had just raised say 6x to 8xBB preflop instead of limp reraise, do you think villain would have called with TT preflop or reraised?

what do you think about the open raised preflop then check raise the rag flop line?

[edtost]

ah, i knew i forgot an important detail. matt was back in town for some reason, and was the CO in this hand. playing oop against both of them was not exactly something i relished getting myself into preflop.

[edtost]

6-8x would've been an uncharicteristically big open; it more likely would've been 4-5x if i decided to open raise it, and i think villain would randomize to some degree with TT in that spot, probably just calling more frequently, although he may have reraised for info and to drive out publo's big stack in the sb. if i open and get called, i bet out the flop; if i get reraised by villain, i likely check dark and then raise, a move i make in that spot with a lot of hands. or i may decide to call down, letting him bluff at me, partially depending on who else is in the pot at the time.

i like my flop play a lot, and his even more. my preflop play is questionable, but i don't think its awful on occasion, especially to protect my limps, which i do with like, any two cards at times.

[okayplayer]

I I like the play (against thinking players). I like it because you have multiple ways to win: by having the best hand, and by making it look like you have the best hand and getting a better hand to fold. I like the c/r on the flop - especially if you think you will only get calls on the flop. You don't really want to see the turn here.

As a side note, do you make the same play on a K high board?

Did he show TT?

[edtost]

i don't remember whether he showed, but we rabbit hunted, and he reacted very obviously to the T that would've turned.

a K high board is much more diffucult to play. i probably bet a quarter and take it from there.

[admo415]

He didn't show, this is the thrid hand I found from that night posted, maybe I should start posting some of my hands, like the AK one with you and forest going all in before me, but I dont remember it well, so I can't /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[DrPublo]

He flashed me his hand, I'm pretty sure he had TT. I definitely saw one T in his hand.

The Doc