A better line for TP2K??

[jhall23]

I posted a similar situation a few days ago which I think I didn't play all that good. I think this time I played it a little better. This was on the first orbit so I don't know what's up with UTG.


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($77)
UTG+1 ($25)
MP1 ($60.55)
Hero ($27.7)
MP3 ($25)
CO ($26.85)
Button ($29.15)
SB ($51.15)
BB ($39.6)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $2</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls $2, Hero calls $2, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls $1.50.

Flop: ($8.25) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $2</font>, MP1 calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $8, MP1 folds.

I thought I'd raise it about the size of the pot and try and take it down/or get a better idea where I am. Only UTG calls so now I am thinking I should play it slow.


Turn: ($30.25) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $4</font>, Hero calls $4.

Weak bet compared to the flop, is he trying to get me to raise, or does he really not have a hand? I am thinking just calling down.

River: ($38.25) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $3.9</font>, Hero calls $3.90.

Ok, another weak bet I only have ~12 left. Could be a blocking/value bet. I don't want to overplay so I just call.


Final Pot: $46.05


Anybody have any suggestions on any of the streets?

[schwza]

pre-flop: my default would be to fold here with no read on utg. a utg raise should represent a much stronger hand than an MP raise, and the worst thing you want to do is to play your hand against AK or AA-QQ (from the PFR, the cold caller, or a player behind you). your position is marginal. at least at the higher levels, this is a fold. i think it is at the 25 too.

flop: i like your play. i'm not sure i like your reasoning. you're not really doing it to assess the strength of your hand, because you don't have enough stack left to fold to a push on the flop (at least IMO. would you have called a push on the flop?)

the purpose of the raise is that you probably have the best hand right now and you want to get more money in the pot and/or fold out thin draws. if MP1 does have a flush draw, he'd probably call, but this is not too big a problem for you.

turn: if utg is any good, he almost certainly does not have a flush draw. the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif is on the board, so he'd have to have raised utg with K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif or worse. i read this little bet as "i don't want to fold my hand, but i'm going to try to get to the showdown as cheaply as possible."

if he does have a draw (such as 88/99), then not pushing on the turn is a mistake. however, like i said, i think that's unlikely.

my plan would be to flat call the turn and plan on pushing the river. the push will be small relative to the size of the pot, and he'll feel obligated to call with a marginal made hand. i think his most likely holdings are KK and QQ.

[jhall23]

Thanks for the lengthy response.

Pre-flop, after some info on a player I would probably fold an UTG raise too if they were decent. I see too many people on party 25 raise crap like AT UTG and if they have something real good it is more than 2 bucks so I gave it a go.

In regards to the flop that is something to think about. I don't know what I would have done if he pushed with such little info on the opponent. I think I probably would have folded at the time. I am trying to think about it a little more clearly now that I am not on a limited time. At that point I had ~16 left behind. If he would have pushed that would have been ~16 to win ~45 so basically 3:1. Still not clear on this but it doesn't seem so bad.

The after the flop play the river play is definetly the other area I wasnt sure of. I like my call on the turn. On the river I considered pushing, but I guess may have chickened out.

Turns out he was raising crap, KTs, so I took it down. Don't know why he would call that re-raise on the flop. He turned out to be pretty TAG stat wise for the hour I played, don't know what he was thinking on that hand.

[Tilt]

I would raise the turn all-in. I might be crazy but when the raiser weakly bets the flop and then flat calls your flop raise, I smell a draw or weak PP hoping for help.

I mean, if you call the preflop raise and then you get your card, you need to be prepared to play it for a shallow stack. Very different logic applies to deep stacks.

[JohnG]

[ QUOTE ]
Anybody have any suggestions on any of the streets?

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG makes a full raise UTG. He gets a call from MP1. I'd consider your best line to fold preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: ($8.25) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets $2</font>, MP1 calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $10</font>, BB folds, UTG calls $8, MP1 folds.

I thought I'd raise it about the size of the pot and try and take it down/or get a better idea where I am.

[/ QUOTE ]

So let's think about this for a second. Calling a full sized raise with AQo preflop in order to try and win a small pot if we pair the flop. Does that seem like a good idea?

With regards to the rest of the hand. Once you get as far as the turn having played as you did, I would agree with calling both the turn and river, although I may have put him allin on the turn if I figured him to have a high call ratio or read his small bet as trying to get a cheap draw or showdown. I would call the small bets down rather than raise allin on the turn if I suspected I was likely beat.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
If he would have pushed that would have been ~16 to win ~45 so basically 3:1. Still not clear on this but it doesn't seem so bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

from twodimes.net:

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing As 6s 5c
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Ad 165 16.67 813 82.12 12 1.21 0.173
Ac Kh 813 82.12 165 16.67 12 1.21 0.827

you need to be ~25% to win to make calling a push on the flop break-even. AK is by far the most likely hand you're behind, and even then you're not too far from getting proper odds. (against AA you're obviously in a lot of trouble, and AxKs is worse for you b/c it kills your backdoor flush).

if you're going to cold-call pre-flop, it's because you think there's a sizable chance that utg is raising with AJ or worse. you can't get half your stack in and then convince yourself it's got to be AK.

i don't know, maybe pushing on the turn is best. you're obviously going to pay off is a flush gets there, so it's best if you can charge for it. and a made hand that will call a push on the river will probably call one on the turn as well. and if not, and you move him off his 2, 3, or 5 outer, that's not a disaster.

[jhall23]

So I guess it boils down to until I have a better feel for the table it is probably a good idea to just let the AQo go followed by an UTG raise. It worked out this time but it wasn't exactly a comfortable feeling throughout the hand.

Once I make that raise that big on the flop I am basically playing for my stack, so I shouldn't bother with the raise if I am not willing to back up my stack with it.

[schwza]

yeah, that sums it up well.

[TrailofTears]

[ QUOTE ]
I would call the small bets down rather than raise allin on the turn if I suspected I was likely beat. /quote]

If hero likes his hand on the flop, I would imagine he likes it after the 4 comes on the turn, so I would probably push here and make the flush draws pay to see the last card. If hero doesn't really like his hand on the flop, then I don't like the big raise on the flop. I generally don't advocate a big raise (representing strength) without continuing to represent that strength thereafter, especially when a non-scare cared comes.

- ToT

[jhall23]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally don't advocate a big raise (representing strength) without continuing to represent that strength thereafter, especially when a non-scare cared comes.

- ToT

[/ QUOTE ]

That makes good sense. I think I was using selective memory and remembering the times I was beat by AK and got passive.