Tricky LAG makes tricky raise, it's tricky to rock a rhyme on time

[private joker]

Just had a frustrating night at the Bike playing 2/4. Early in the night my decent cards were -- amazingly -- holding up and I was +45BB. Then I started getting AA, JJ, AKs, flushes and straights cracked by weird boats and flushes. Ended up -21BB for the night /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Anyway, as sucky as it was, I couldn't think of any hands to post except the following one, since I think I played pretty solidly. This one was against a very tricky opponent. He was a LAG preflop -- raising about 50% of his hands, many of which were stuff like 65o, 22, A3o, JTo, etc. -- but very solid postflop. As crappy as some of his raises were, he usually showed down a winner. Anyway, I was BB against him and there was one cold-caller between us. I decided to defend, because the cold-calling Button was a total fish idiot, and the hand went like this:

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
4 folds, <font color="red"> Villain raises </font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop (6.5 sb): Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">Villain bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, Villain calls, Button folds

Turn: (5 BB): A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets, Villain raises</font>, Hero folds

Yeah?

[Russ McGinley]

Looks fine to me. You put him on an ace and you folded believing you had the worst hand. No problems there.

[Nick C]

Well, I don't know. He may have just now caught his ace on the turn, which would give you five outs. But even that would make the call close. I think the turn fold is fine.

[K C]

You did say he was solid post-flop. You check-raised on the flop, he called. So what does he have here? Would he play on here without at least a pair of queens or a good draw? Pretty raggy flop actually.

On the turn with the ace, he's either bluffing, or has your hand beat. If he had AQ, he probably would have re-raised you on the flop (he's aggressive right?) A6, and if he's solid though, he probably would have folded into your check-raise. I guess it depends on what you mean by "solid." This looks like it may have been a bluff, and it might have been worth 2 more bets to find out. Or 1 more bet if you had checked and called on the turn with the overcard.

KC
http://kingcopbrapoker.com

[jordanx]

Yeah.

If it makes you feel any better, same thing happened to me last night. Was up about 25BB then sat back helpless as seas of 84o cold calls and miracle rivers whiddled me away to -20BB.

To top it off, people were actually trash talking me for doing 'stupid' things like check raising the flop and then checking the turn and folding the river (free card play).

When I left the table, guy who won about 10 BB off of me in one hand by hitting his gut shot on the river when I flopped a set of Kings (capped pre-flop vs. his ATo, capped the flop with backdoor straight draw, capped turn w/ gut shot straight draw and I just called his river bet.) taunts me about my play and says something about having all my chips.

Meh... all in a nights work.

[spydog]

[ QUOTE ]
Just had a frustrating night at the Bike playing 2/4. Early in the night my decent cards were -- amazingly -- holding up and I was +45BB. Then I started getting AA, JJ, AKs, flushes and straights cracked by weird boats and flushes. Ended up -21BB for the night /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Anyway, as sucky as it was, I couldn't think of any hands to post except the following one, since I think I played pretty solidly. This one was against a very tricky opponent. He was a LAG preflop -- raising about 50% of his hands, many of which were stuff like 65o, 22, A3o, JTo, etc. -- but very solid postflop. As crappy as some of his raises were, he usually showed down a winner. Anyway, I was BB against him and there was one cold-caller between us. I decided to defend, because the cold-calling Button was a total fish idiot, and the hand went like this:

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
4 folds, <font color="red"> Villain raises </font>, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop (6.5 sb): Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, <font color="red">Villain bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="red">Hero raises</font>, Villain calls, Button folds

Turn: (5 BB): A/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
<font color="red">Hero bets, Villain raises</font>, Hero folds

Yeah?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really like it. You say he's a tricky lag. You represented a Queen on the flop. So, what does a tricky lag do when an Ace hits on the turn? Yes, he represents an Ace. Maybe he had it, maybe he didn't, but I'm inclined to call down based on the read given.

Also, I might be inclined to check this turn to induce a bluff. You have 2nd pair, out of position, against a LAG. I want to show this down, but as cheaply as possible. With OK hands out of position against lags, it's often correct to just get passive.

[gaming_mouse]

This is my least favorite kind of hand. I hate this decision. Depending on how tricky he is postflop, I don't think anyone is going to fault you for calling down. On the other hand, with your 5 (probably good) outs, plus the added chance that he's bluffing, I call down here more often than not against a LAG -- which may be a leak.

Sometimes I fold too. Problem is, if I fold, I feel bad. If I call down and it's not a bluff, I feel bad. Only way I feel good about this decision is calling down and exposing a bluff.

[JinX11]

I like your line here. Smallish pot; I think it's a good fold as you seem to have a good read on him.

[MoreWineII]

In this small pot, I like it. Ni han.

btw, that's some nice variance, last night was similiar for me. We're good.

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
I decided to defend, because the cold-calling Button was a total fish idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me there isn't a situation where you would fold here. It should be "I was thrilled that I got to call here getting 5.5:1 with a hand that's going to do great against these guys when it catches the flop at all. Man I'm glad I had a hand this strong instead of 85o--that would have sucked."

scrub

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I decided to defend, because the cold-calling Button was a total fish idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me there isn't a situation where you would fold here. It should be "I was thrilled that I got to call here getting 5.5:1 with a hand that's going to do great against these guys when it catches the flop at all. Man I'm glad I had a hand this strong instead of 85o--that would have sucked."

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I have 3-bet?

[scrub]

I like the fold against a guy who was only overaggro preflop. If he was making weird raises later in hands without at least top pair, then I like it a lot less, particularly with a card that could have let him pick up a draw.

At 2/4, though, my guess is that you a good fold. I hate looking for ways to fold decent hands against guys who are a bit clownish, though, and your player description sounds lke he might have been a clown.

scrub

[scrub]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I decided to defend, because the cold-calling Button was a total fish idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

Please tell me there isn't a situation where you would fold here. It should be "I was thrilled that I got to call here getting 5.5:1 with a hand that's going to do great against these guys when it catches the flop at all. Man I'm glad I had a hand this strong instead of 85o--that would have sucked."

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

Should I have 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but you're certainly thrilled to call.

scrub

[Wepeel]

I don't think you give him credit for the ace there, however, I don't think you 3-bet there either. If he is as tricky as you say, with or without the ace he might come back over the top of you and reraise. I would probably just check call down and hopefully he shows a lower pair. I think this situation comes down to more of will he bluff at pots or would he only raise with made hands?

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you give him credit for the ace there, however, I don't think you 3-bet there either. If he is as tricky as you say, with or without the ace he might come back over the top of you and reraise. I would probably just check call down and hopefully he shows a lower pair. I think this situation comes down to more of will he bluff at pots or would he only raise with made hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I see what you're getting at. Anyone that plays live, though, there's a different mentality when it comes to turn raises. People are such calling stations there -- and I hadn't really gotten involved with this guy yet before this hand -- that you always expect people to call you down. At the Bike, and most CA casinos, very few pots go without showdowns, especially raised ones. So the one adjustment you have to make is to respect turn raises more. They're almost always for value. Not that this guy wasn't capable of a turn-raise bluff (after all, that's why I posted this hand), but that it's a hand I probably would have a harder time folding online.

[private joker]

I'd like to hear more thoughts on my flop check-raise. At the time I liked it because a) I trapped moron Button for a flop bet; and b) I got 2SB from the aggressive Villain when I likely had the best hand. Also, it established to him I liked my hand a lot. When he raised me on the turn, I figured I was beat because he wouldn't raise a flop check-raiser with a hand worse than second-pair/mediocre-kicker in this spot. Or so I thought... we'll never know if I was right, but that was my thinking at the time.

EDIT: Check-raises at the Bike 4/8, by the way, happen approximately once every 500 times. People perk up at this for some reason.

[J.R.]

why do you play 2-4 live?

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
why do you play 2-4 live?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops, my bad. I don't. This was 4/8.

[Evan]

Based on your player description I think your turn play sucks. If you know this guy is tricky and aggressive then you have no be intending to call a raise after betting the turn. If you can't call the raise then check-call and give him a chance to bluff. I think bet-folding is the worst line for the turn. You shouldn't be looking for ways to fold good hands against guys like this.

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on your player description I think your turn play sucks. If you know this guy is tricky and aggressive then you have no be intending to call a raise after betting the turn. If you can't call the raise then check-call and give him a chance to bluff. I think bet-folding is the worst line for the turn. You shouldn't be looking for ways to fold good hands against guys like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ugh. I was afraid of that. But the way I saw it was it's cheaper to bet and fold to a raise than check-call down. I really didn't think he'd raise that turn with a hand worse than mine.

[J.R.]

[ QUOTE ]
He was a LAG preflop -- raising about 50% of his hands, many of which were stuff like 65o, 22, A3o, JTo, etc. -- but very solid postflop. As crappy as some of his raises were, he usually showed down a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Evan]

[ QUOTE ]
But the way I saw it was it's cheaper to bet and fold to a raise than check-call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding the best hand there is really expensive. Stop thinking of these things in nominal dollars.

[ QUOTE ]
I really didn't think he'd raise that turn with a hand worse than mine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Read the title of your post again.

[Evan]

Oh. Okay I'll admit that I didn't read a lot of the text in the first post. I took the title to mean he was an all around tricky player. If that was not correct than disregard what I said. FWIW though I've never played with anyone that had the preflop tendencies you describe that played well after the flop.

[J.R.]

I know lots preflop lags/maniacs who play decent/well postflop, but they play decent/well in an aggressive fashion, not in a passive "I have what I am representing sort of way". But joker was there, not me.

[Evan]

Seriously? Guys that raise 65o-ish hands preflop are all around bad in my experience. They're also bad in the specific sort of way that yeilds turn bluffs on scare cards (i.e. exactly this spot).

[J.R.]

Have you read ITPM by Feeney? He has an essay on this idea. Not to say all or anywhere near most are good, but the general thought is (in a similar fashion to why some posit playing 6-max makes you a better postflop player) that because these guys get put themselves in so many marginal postflop spots, they become good hand readers and develop good instincts or they go bust real quick.

[Evan]

I haven't read it yet but I want to soon. scrub has been telling me to read it for over a month now. I guess I should get on that.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read it yet but I want to soon. scrub has been telling me to read it for over a month now. I guess I should get on that.

[/ QUOTE ]

READ IT.

[Evan]

okay okay. I said I was going to. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[private joker]

[ QUOTE ]

Read the title of your post again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well s[/i]hit, I do that, and now I just got the Run DMC song stuck in my own head.