I played this wrong - but where? Pocket 10s

[pottie]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1230)
MP2 (t860)
Hero (t1288)
Button (t1265)
SB (t405)
BB (t882)
UTG (t860)
UTG+1 (t1210)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t50, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t350</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t650</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t1000</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t1265 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls t265.

Flop: (t2705) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t2705) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t2705) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2705

[Bigwig]

350 is a little excessive preflop. 250 or 275 is plenty.

After you're reraised, I believe you should have folded.

So where you went wrong, IMO, is reraising preflop and getting yourself all-in at this point in the tourney.

[Al Mirpuri]

When the button raises behind you he is raising into several limpers and you who has raised. You have to figure he has you beat at this point. You probably have a call to see if you can flop the third Ten but you certainly do not raise him back with TT even if he has nothing but two overcards it is a coinflip and you do not want to be in those if you are a good player.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
it is a coinflip and you do not want to be in those if you are a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Saying you don't want to be in coinflips if you're a good player is too broad a statement.

He doesn't want to be in a coinflip yet, and considering that a coinflip is probably the best he can hope for here, it's a clear fold. Because, unless the opponent is an idiot, he's got zero fold equity.

[Insty]

let me guess, you lost to AK?

As for advice, I agree with Bigwig.

[pottie]

JJ actually, dont know if my opponent played this very smart himself but he did win the pot...

[redeye3030]

[ QUOTE ]
350 is a little excessive preflop. 250 or 275 is plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes 7BB is excessive with 10s 8 handed with 2 limpers and 3 left to act. I don't like any raise in this spot, I would just limp here and play the hand for set value.

[ QUOTE ]
After you're reraised, I believe you should have folded.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, The fact that he raised 1/2 his stack is a sign of strength to me - he wants you to call. The button is playing this hand for his whole stack - which is equal to yours. I don't think you can cold call here and hope for a 10, the options are push or fold. This is an easy fold for me.

[redeye3030]

[ QUOTE ]
JJ actually, dont know if my opponent played this very smart himself but he did win the pot...

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether he played it smart depends on his read of you. A raise to 350 by a good player indicates a monster AA-QQ maybe AK. So if he is a good player and reads you as being good then a fold is in order here. However, even if he puts you on a very wide range of hands such as any 2 cards 10 or higher, he is still just getting into a coinflip. So I think the min reraise was an error, if I'm playing JJ here , its with a push to maximize folding equity.

[jackaaron]

I can respect the initial raise (although you might have just called) but when the button raised, I wouldn't have reraised pre-flop with that.

I think sometimes people are in some ways "offended" by being raised on by the button like you were, and these people "react" by being more aggressive. I'm not saying you did this at all, but I think emotions sometimes screw with people's decision making.

[KenProspero]

I'm sure this is just my inexperience, but why is it a fold rather than a call on the re-raise.

Admittedly the raise to 350 is agressive (I'd have called here), but what's done is done. When Button raises 300, there's 1175 chips in the pot, with 300 to call.

That's about 4-1. Probably not enough based on the possibility of the trips alone, but unless I'm pretty sure that Button has an overpair, when you add in the possibility that I may win the 'coin flip' with two overcards, or the slim chance that the I'm ahead (if button made an admittedly bad bet with something like AT, and I've seen worse), is it worth the shot?

Having made the mistake of the initial raise (IMO), I'd probably call the reraise. However, if someone can point out to me the flaw in my analysis, I'd love to be able to plug another leak in my game.

[jeffraider]

***** Hand History for Game 1400335497 *****
NL Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:8465581 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Thursday, January 06, 22:10:35 EDT 2005
Table Table 11535 (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 4: rjoseph ( $800 )
Seat 5: jeffraiderSA ( $800 )
Seat 10: bobbymogs ( $715 )
Seat 9: String ( $970 )
Seat 6: jercart ( $800 )
Seat 1: twinboyz ( $785 )
Seat 2: mekkjim ( $870 )
Seat 7: shoneyb ( $675 )
Seat 3: Venkat298 ( $800 )
Seat 8: KPeezy ( $785 )
Trny:8465581 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to jeffraiderSA [ Tc Ts ]
Venkat298 calls [15].
rjoseph folds.
jeffraiderSA raises [65].
jercart folds.
shoneyb folds.
KPeezy folds.
String calls [65].
bobbymogs is all-In [715]
twinboyz folds.
mekkjim folds.
Venkat298 folds.
jeffraiderSA folds.
String calls [650].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2c, 6h, 7h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8s ]
** Dealing River ** [ As ]
String shows [ Qh, Qd ] a pair of queens.
bobbymogs shows [ Qs, Ad ] a pair of aces.
bobbymogs wins 1535 chips from the main pot with a pair of aces.

[adanthar]

This is why including limpers in your raising calculations is very wrong after levels 1 and 2. You've just raised a quarter of your stack and are minraised back giving you odds to at least call; what are you going to do now other than push?

If you are going to raise (which is by no means a given) make it 150 (maybe 200, since this is one of maybe two hands that you really do need to play HU). That way, you can at least call a small reraise and play for a set.

Additionally, this big raise does actually scream medium pair, not AA. If you play AA that way, it's better (but still wrong because now you're not getting any action on your big pairs either) but you probably don't.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure this is just my inexperience, but why is it a fold rather than a call on the re-raise.

Admittedly the raise to 350 is agressive (I'd have called here), but what's done is done. When Button raises 300, there's 1175 chips in the pot, with 300 to call.

That's about 4-1. Probably not enough based on the possibility of the trips alone, but unless I'm pretty sure that Button has an overpair, when you add in the possibility that I may win the 'coin flip' with two overcards, or the slim chance that the I'm ahead (if button made an admittedly bad bet with something like AT, and I've seen worse), is it worth the shot?

Having made the mistake of the initial raise (IMO), I'd probably call the reraise. However, if someone can point out to me the flaw in my analysis, I'd love to be able to plug another leak in my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the probabilty of the opponent having an overpair here is extremely high--above 50%. The point in folding when you *might* be getting proper odds to call is the same reason you fold 76s from the BB to a 4BB raise from a UTG player in the first round. It's to conserve chips, and be able to pick a spot to push and play for all of them when either (a)you're likely the favorite (not the case here) or are (b) the aggressor (not the case here) and have fold equity to accompany your solid hand.

[Jman28]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the probabilty of the opponent having an overpair here is extremely high--above 50%.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is super dependent on your opponent. Against a reasonable player, good estimate.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the probabilty of the opponent having an overpair here is extremely high--above 50%.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is super dependent on your opponent. Against a reasonable player, good estimate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, of course. In this situation, though, I've no read on the opponent, since I wasn't there. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Al Mirpuri]

I do not come across this term too often. What is fold equity?

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not come across this term too often. What is fold equity?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the extra EV that you gain from the probability that the player you are raising will fold. For example, you have AQ. Your opponent also has AQ. If both of you get all-in, each of you have exactly 50% equity in the hand.

However, if you're the first to go all-in, depending on the situation, your opponent may fold z% of the time. This extra fold % gives you fold equity, and makes your hand more valuable.

[Al Mirpuri]

Thanks. Concise, erudite and perspicacious.