why can't i just fold and move on? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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edtost

01-06-2005, 10:43 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 (tighty) 3-bets, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, tighty bets, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, Button calls, Hero folds, tighty calls, MP1 calls.

tighty is 4/0/0.0 over 50 hands - can i just muck this preflop?

wuwei

01-06-2005, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
can i just muck this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Getting 15.5:1 on your call closing the action???

Tosh

01-06-2005, 10:54 PM

Folding preflop would be ridiculous, you did fine.

Harv72b

01-06-2005, 11:03 PM

Are you that confident in your read on UTG+1, over only 50 hands? And are you that convinced that MP3 is raising with the straight, and not top pair or two pair (or even OESD)?

I just can't help but notice that you're getting 11:1 immediate pot odds to call 2 on the flop, holding TPTK, or even to 3-bet & potentially knock out Mr. Tighty on this scary board.

I think if you've already sold yourself on UTG+1 holding AA, then you might as well have folded preflop, despite the odds.

edtost

01-06-2005, 11:07 PM

i've resigned myself to being a big enough dog to the field with tptk to be losing money by calling. and i hate dominated offsuit big cards vs. tight raisers, as much as that may be nl bs that i need to get out of my head.

Munga30

01-06-2005, 11:10 PM

I don't think so. I think you did fine.

scrub

01-06-2005, 11:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
Hero raises, UTG+1 (tighty) 3-bets, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (16.50 SB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, tighty bets, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, Button calls, Hero folds, tighty calls, MP1 calls.

tighty is 4/0/0.0 over 50 hands - can i just muck this preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to stop giving pokertracker stats so much credit when you've barely played with the other guy. 50 hands is nowhere near long enough to start wanting to fold this preflop after you get 3-bet...

Also, bet the flop.

scrub

scrub

01-06-2005, 11:25 PM

Just to clarify, there is no situation where you should fold this preflop no matter how many hands you have with someone.

scrub

scrub

01-06-2005, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Folding preflop would be ridiculous, you did fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely surprised that you like the way Ed played this.

scrub

edtost

01-06-2005, 11:30 PM

yeah, i know i can never fold it, that's why i was so annoyed. it wasn't even that he was particularly tight, i just didn't want to be playing a huge pot out of position with offsuit high cards.

edtost

01-06-2005, 11:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, i was planning to do a check-call-wait for the turn thingy if it was one bet back to me and to fold for 2. awful idea?

djoyce003

01-06-2005, 11:35 PM

Am I the only one that folds this preflop? I don't raise with ace jack offsuit utg..you've got terrible position the entire hand, you are going to get callers, and they likely have better hands than you. Worse, you are liable to get threebet by someone with a real hand that has position on you, which is exactly what happened.

Since you raised, you've got to call because you are getting odds for it. Post flop you've got top pair top kicker, but that is an ultra coordinated flop and there is lots of action. Tighty might be raising with AK here since he threebet preflop, but MP3 has something. Since i'm in, I think I reluctantly threebet this. If tighty or MP3 caps the raise, i call, fold unimproved on the turn because tighty has the overpair you feared originally or MP3 has the straight or two pair with jack 10.

scrub

01-06-2005, 11:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

heh, i was planning to do a check-call-wait for the turn thingy if it was one bet back to me and to fold for 2. awful idea?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your wet dream is to bet the flop and have PFR raise you with AK forcing the field to call two cold.

The biggest thing that sucks about checking and folding if it's two back to you is that you're going to fold the best hand or a hand with more outs in a 16.5 sb pot than you want to be folding when UTG bets and a naked Q or a Q + a pair raises him.

scrub

scrub

01-06-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Am I the only one that folds this preflop? I don't raise with ace jack offsuit utg..you've got terrible position the entire hand, you are going to get callers, and they likely have better hands than you. Worse, you are liable to get threebet by someone with a real hand that has position on you, which is exactly what happened.

Since you raised, you've got to call because you are getting odds for it. Post flop you've got top pair top kicker, but that is an ultra coordinated flop and there is lots of action. Tighty might be raising with AK here since he threebet preflop, but MP3 has something. Since i'm in, I think I reluctantly threebet this. If tighty or MP3 caps the raise, i call, fold unimproved on the turn because tighty has the overpair you feared originally or MP3 has the straight or two pair with jack 10.

[/ QUOTE ]

Folding this preflop would be a mistake, although probably not a huge mistake for players who do not play well after the flop.

scrub

scrub

01-06-2005, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i was planning to do a check-call-wait for the turn thingy

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have the kind of position relative to the raiser that is going to make it easier for you to protect your hand by checkraising the turn.

scrub

holdemfan

01-06-2005, 11:52 PM

Don't raise AJ until MP. Call their 3bet. The flop is coordiated so bad you either bet and test it or check and fold. No bet gives A)them signs of weakness and they will take lead B)draws get a free card.With preflop action including the button who called 3 bets cold I think QQ or KQs is very likely. The flop action is like a flare going up saying one or both of us has got you beat now or will soon. Even if you got an A or another J it might only lead to donating chips to a better hand.

Harv72b

01-06-2005, 11:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't raise AJ until MP

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd tend to say that if you're going to play it from EP, you should be raising it.

Entity

01-07-2005, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Don't raise AJ until MP

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd tend to say that if you're going to play it from EP, you should be raising it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, I don't think it matters much. Isn't Miller's comment "just pick one and stick with it"?

Rob

scrub

01-07-2005, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Meh, I don't think it matters much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bingo.

The fact that people seemed to like check/folding the flop is MUCH more important than the preflop play in this hand.

scrub

Tosh

01-07-2005, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding preflop would be ridiculous, you did fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely surprised that you like the way Ed played this.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

I merely commented on preflop, and folding is a crazy thought to have.

scrub

01-07-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Folding preflop would be ridiculous, you did fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm extremely surprised that you like the way Ed played this.

scrub

[/ QUOTE ]

I merely commented on preflop, and folding is a crazy thought to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok--that's what I was hoping you were going to say. Disagreeing that strongly with one of your posts always makes me a little nervous.

scrub