U.S. Poker player's cost of living

[2ndGoat]

According to calculator at http://www.homefair.com/homefair/calc/salcalc.html?type=to, which uses data from the Beaureu of Labro Statistics, the following salaries are equivalent:

$70900 in Biloxi
$73500 Hartford/Providence Average (Foxwoods?)
$77543 in Atlantic City
$79000 in Las Vegas
$102750 in Los Angelos
$163800 in San Francisco

These data reflect the cost of living in the middle of the city. I don't know enough about the areas to research comparable bedroom communities 12 miles out without doing a little more legwork.

My questions for discussion:
1) Can one make 1.3x as much per hour (the relevant COLA ratio) at a 30/60 hold'em table in LA as he/she could in Vegas? Feel free to respond for any other limit/game that a pofessional could potentially play. Assume in your replies that the player in question is equally comfortable in all game situations, tighter LV games vs. crazy LA games, etc. Same question applies to SF vs LA, Foxwoods vs AC, etc.
2) Do these cost-of-living numbers seem fair? (For instance, I could see Vegas turning up even cheaper relative to LA if one looked at suburbs 12 miles out rather than the city).
3) Any other areas within the US (or hell, anywhere else) that ought to be considered, or that you'd like to chime in about?

Online games, of course, are a great equalizer (or skewer, depending on how you look at it)... I suppose one could move next door to Ray Zee (amd by that I mean 20 miles away) and play online for the ultimate Cost-of-Living coup.

My experiences in AC and LV suggest the mid-limit hold'em games yield similar win rates, with maybe a slight nod to Vegas. I haven't played anywhere else. As an aside, I believe "AC is the stud capital" is becoming less and less true these days- there's a whole bunch of hold'em these days, and every time I look it seems there's one more hold'em table and one less for stud.

My end goal, of course, is to compile a rough quantitative "P COLI" (not a disease, but a Poker Cost of Living Index) factoring how expensive an area is with how good the games are.

2ndGoat
2ndGoat

[BarronVangorToth]

I'd question any website whose information leads you down the path thinking you need about as much money to live in Connecticut as Mississippi.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[2ndGoat]

Yeah that popped out at me too, though from my own understanding, the rest of it looks about plausible. A little more on their methodology (it's not actually Bureau of Labor Statistics info, but uses those formulae):

What is the source of your data, and what are your formulas?

The cost of living data is provided as part of the Center for Mobility Resources® service. The formulas are based for the most part on those adopted by the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The five major categories for U.S. data are housing costs (33%), utilities (8%), consumables (16%), transportation (10%), and other services (33%).

The Center for Mobility Resources data sets are provided thanks to the help of more than 2,000 associates who provide information used in the database. These include real estate offices and relocation directors, government agencies at the state, local, and national level, and Chambers of Commerce. The Center also is grateful to Jeffrey R. Wilson, Ph.D., Professor of Statistics and Director of the Interdisciplinary Program in Statistics, Arizona State University, and to Yolanda D. Strozier, President and Managing Director, Statistical Data Analysis and Research (SDAR), for coordinating the development of our research databases, for helping to develop the formulas and calculations, and for providing the final and ongoing testing of the statistical integrity of the information and data. We update the data quarterly--see About our Data.

How up to date is the information?

U.S. data has been updated to reflect third quarter 2004 information


2ndGoat

[mosquito]

Mississippi is an interesting case. Be sure to
consider Tunica, which has much better action
than Biloxi, and is near a major metro (Memphis).

Cost of living is also a function of how you
choose to live (eat out, et al) and a place
that takes care of some of your food costs through
free meal comps must also be taken into account.

[schroedy]

My personal experience in mid-limits ($15/$30 and such) is that Las Vegas is much easier than LA -- at least easier in the sense of better being able to figure out where you are at. Not enough data yet to determine if the wilder LA games have a better long term earn.

I have a hard time believing the comparative LA and SFO numbers also.

[BarronVangorToth]

As far as I can tell, it costs about $600 / month to live in Tunica, food included, as the Goldstrike has a poker rate about $20 per day and they will comp EVERY meal (as will the Horseshoe next door). The week I was there, I didn't spend a penny on food when I ate in the casino as both places were more than willing to give out as many comps as I wanted -- including for my friends, some of whom weren't playing poker.

The Goldstrike is an amazing place, for certain.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)
Team I Can't Live in Fairfield, CT for $7,200 / Year

[axioma]

the harrahs in new orleans was very soft when i visted it in the summer, and im sure its got to be a cheaper place to live that the others you mention.

im not from the U.S. though. over here in the UK we dont pay tax on winnings as im sure you know. Youre pretty much limmited to purely online (onless you have a thing for PLO...). However this should be soon to change, with many new 'super casinos' due to open over here in the comming years.

[schroedy]

But of course the COL in London would dwarf anything in these US cities.

[cowboyzfan]

[ QUOTE ]
But of course the COL in London would dwarf anything in these US cities.

[/ QUOTE ]

But would you rather be in London or Tunica? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Maybe some would pick Tunica. Anyway, I would say San Fran and London are comparable. But that no tax thing sounds so nice /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[CrazyN8]

[ QUOTE ]
But would you rather be in London or Tunica? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Easy now, some of us like life in these here southern states./images/graemlins/grin.gif I would imagine cost of living in Biloxi is listed as such because it is coastal (Mississippi doesn't have the largest coastline). If I 'lived' in 'Tunica', I would probably live in Memphis...they do have a hall tax...maybe Senatobia or Hernando. There is NOTHING in Tunica besides the casinos.

[K C]

Come up here to Canada where the cost of living is lower and there's no tax on winnings /images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is kind of interesting, but what stands out is that by playing online you can live wherever you like, as well as a bunch of other savings you don't run into in the B&M world.

KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

[axioma]

There are other places in the UK besides london ya know /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[2ndGoat]

I've wondered about how poker is spread in Canada...
What cities have mid or high limit games?
Is the rake/time charge similar to US casinos?
How tough/soft are the games?
And how expensive is it to live in those cities compared to some of these US cities? With and without taking the tax-free stuff into account... I understand US citizens are still required to pay tax on gambling winnings abroad, so for US folk to pick up that perk might require taking canadian citiznship.

2ndGoat

[schroedy]

I think that if, as an American, I am going "ex-pat" (and trust me that recent political developments make this more and more interesting), I am thinking . . . toward the equator, not away from it.

So . . . what about Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Peru, Colombia, Venezuela, Panama . . . Cuba? Well, Cuba is probably out since I probably won't give up my citizenship or anything drastic like that, but other than that it would have been nice -- maybe Puerto Rico or some of the other Carribean islands. Mexico would be great if they could just get their arms around one simple concept -- government with integrity, i.e., not corrupt/payola etc.

[jtr]

I would say something about glass houses and stones at this point but that would be getting off topic.

[cowboyzfan]

but our glass house is a lot nicer than most others..and the glass is a lot stronger /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Vex]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a hard time believing the comparative LA and SFO numbers also.

[/ QUOTE ]

I live near SF and, trust me, the numbers are realistic. Even if you live on the peninsula, south of the city, you're going to pay a heart-stopping amount of rent. I'm talking in the neighborhood of $2.00 per sqare foot per month. You want to buy? Good luck; a 20 year old, 2000 sq ft. house in Suburbia will run you anywhere between $600,000 and $1,000,000.

When I moved here, I worked with a local real estate agent to find my current residence. I told her all about my nice 2,000 square foot house with attached two-car garage and nice-sized fenced-in yard I bought in a suburb in Texas. When I told her how much I paid for it (around $130,000 in 2003) she burst out laughing.

You can't even buy a condo here for under $400,000.

This place is so nutso for real estate that they often do forty year (or longer!) mortgages, consider 1.5% to be a nice down payment, and will happily structure the financing so that you are only paying interest and never decreasing the principal balance on your loan.

On top of that, add in the higher taxes (state income tax, high sales tax, even higher gasoline taxes), higher prices for basics like groceries. You find out very quickly that this place is utterly insane.

[cowboyzfan]

[ QUOTE ]
I understand US citizens are still required to pay tax on gambling winnings abroad, so for US folk to pick up that perk might require taking canadian citiznship.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have heard this alluded to before but I am not so sure about it. I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Ok, not that that matters much when it comes to tax law. But as I understand it, if you live abroad a certain number of months in a given tax year, something like a minimum of ten months, you don't have to pay US tax on your first $80,000 of earnings.

Now, say someone lived in London for the entire year, and only earned $70,000 including gambling, you mean to tell me that the US tax code says that gambling earnings/winnings have their own status and do not qualify for the tax exemption?

Anyone have the facts on this issue?

[Shoe]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as I can tell, it costs about $600 / month to live in Tunica, food included, as the Goldstrike has a poker rate about $20 per day and they will comp EVERY meal (as will the Horseshoe next door). The week I was there, I didn't spend a penny on food when I ate in the casino as both places were more than willing to give out as many comps as I wanted -- including for my friends, some of whom weren't playing poker.

The Goldstrike is an amazing place, for certain.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)
Team I Can't Live in Fairfield, CT for $7,200 / Year

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you get these rates? I have been looking for somewhere I can travel to cheaply for a few days, and just play poker (and in theory more than cover the cost of the trip). Can I call ahead and get these rates, or do I need to be an established member of their players club? Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[mosquito]

Call the cardroom at the casino you want to play at,
and they will arrange the room rate.

Depending on the time of year, and so forth, you need
to call one to four weeks ahead of when you want to be
there. Weekends always get filled, you can sometimes
get a weekday at the last minute.

[ilya]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd question any website whose information leads you down the path thinking you need about as much money to live in Connecticut as Mississippi.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com (http://www.BarronVangorToth.com)

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, living in New Haven is extremely cheap.

[Tsushima]

[ QUOTE ]
im not from the U.S. though. over here in the UK we dont pay tax on winnings as im sure you know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been trying to confirm this because in a few months my current job comes to an end and I am likely to just concentrate on poker (as I am starting to earn more from poker anyway and time at work seems like its just costing me money).

Several people have said to me that poker winnings are tax free in the UK but can this be confirmed anywhere on the Inland Reveue website (or somewhere similar). It would obviously make life considerably easier if I only have to earn half as much as I do now /images/graemlins/smile.gif

And to push my luck a little further, if I was officially unemployed, do these non-taxable poker winnings actually count as income for purposes of unemployment benefit/income support? i.e. Is winning at poker defined as 'work' or could I sign on for the extra cash and play poker quite legally?

Any advice appreciated.

[Byrn]

Well, hartford may be roughly equal to biloxi if you only consider living inside the city. If you want to live in most of the burbs of hartford, the cost increases quite a bit. Much more so when one gets to your area of the state.

I have no idea about the areas surrounding biloxi, but I have to imagine it is realtively less expensive than say choosing to live in most towns surrounding hartford.

I do agree with your assumption that cost of living is likely much greater in CT than MS, just the data given may not be incorrect in itself.

[david050173]

COL can be deceptive. Somethings are pretty constant value (cost of putting jr through harvard, 401k contributions, cars,...) while other things are relative (houses, taxes,..). Sometimes you can also live differently (in SF you live in a 2/2 condo instead of a 3k sq ft house in vegas) while the calculators assume a more apples to apples comparision.

And as far as I know professionals in canda have to pay taxes on winnings. Cost of living in the cities is about the same. And heck even without income taxes, the VAT on some products is insane /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mystic]

All poker winnings are treated the same as any gambling winnings in the UK. It is all tax free.

However, if solely playing online, I wouldnt recommend moving to the UK. Brazil, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand spring to mind. Cost of living is cheaper in all of these countries too. And the weather is infinitely better, as is the food, the women, and pretty much anything else you can think of.

[Mystic]

£100,000 ($200,000) in Brazil buys you this:-

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-3716293.rsp/svr/2006;jsessionid=A02DE8C48B223C5C96E92D8B977BE3A6?p a_n=2&tr_t=buy&chnl=overseas

In London, the same amount secures you this -

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/viewdetails-3429831.rsp/svr/2006;jsessionid=A02DE8C48B223C5C96E92D8B977BE3A6?p a_n=3&tr_t=buy&chnl=buy

Where would you rather be?

I don't know what the tax situation is for an American residing in Brazil, but, if the alternative is London, then who cares!

[Rudbaeck]

[ QUOTE ]
£100,000 ($200,000) in Brazil buys you this:-


[/ QUOTE ]

A beach side mansion. *slowly rolls the phrase over his tongue* Now this looks perky!

[burningyen]

Wow.

[cowboyzfan]

But again, a couple of times on these boards people have said that Americans who reside abroad must pay taxes on gambling winnings, as opposed to basically any other type of income. I don't see the logic in this at all. I wish someone could debunk this once and for all or give us the bad news and dash our dreams of living in some exotic locale (or London /images/graemlins/smile.gif ), dragging the occasional pot, and paying no tax (legally, only first 80,000 exempt)

Of course someone could just ask Hilger since he lived in New Zealand and played poker for a living.

[Rudbaeck]

Hilger mentions in his book that he did make the 80k deduction.

[Paul2432]

I'm not a tax expert but I can read. I found the following on the IRS (http://www.irs.gov) web site.

Income earned by US citizens residing outside the US is taxable. However, upto $80,000 of foreign earned income may be excluded.

Earned income exclusion (http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc855.html)

Note the use of the word "earned"

In publication 54 the IRS specifically states that gambling income is "unearned". Unearned income is not eligible for the $80,000 exclusion.

Publication 54 - earned income (http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch04.html#d0e2926) (scroll down a bit)

I am not sure if there is a way around this if you have previously filed as a professional gambler.

Paul

[cowboyzfan]

i can read too. that sucks /images/graemlins/mad.gif

anyway, thanks for the info.

[Sporky]

I'm from Ocean Springs (across a bridge east of Biloxi), and I say that the Biloxi estimate is way too high. I don't anyone who makes near that much in that area, and they have no problem supporting themselves and/or a family. It depends on your standard of living and if you have a family etc. I would think as a bachelor you could easily get by cutting that figure in half. One thing to consider is that the highest limit poker games that I have seen in the area is $20/$40 at the Grand Casino Biloxi. So if you chose to make your living playing B&M casino, then I don't know of a place you could play for higher limits if needed/wanted. Housing and food aren't that expensive and like previously mentioned, the casinos usually comp you meals. Some of the property taxes can be high, but I don't see how that $70K figure was calculated.

[Tsushima]

[ QUOTE ]
All poker winnings are treated the same as any gambling winnings in the UK. It is all tax free.

However, if solely playing online, I wouldnt recommend moving to the UK. Brazil, Argentina, Australia, New Zealand spring to mind. Cost of living is cheaper in all of these countries too. And the weather is infinitely better, as is the food, the women, and pretty much anything else you can think of.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have to move to the UK. I already live there /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I have considered moving to New Zealand, partly because its a nice place to live and partly because the timezone difference re the USA would give me an advantage over tired and/or drunk Americans when I am playing during my most awake hours /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I hadn't considered Brazil or Argentina. What are those countries like in terms of standard of living, public amenities, law and order, etc.

[Mystic]

Well a few years ago I went on a round the world trip, and during this time I spent six months in Australia and one month in New Zealand. Either of these countries would be ideal for online poker. COL is slightly cheaper in New Zealand, but I would choose to live in any of a multitude of places on the east coast of Australia for the bonus of the nightlife /images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for Brazil and Argentina, I've only ever heard good things about Buenos Aires in particular. COL is cheap, and it's easy to get sorted out with a nice apartment with internet. And apparently the nightlife is amazing! An at least basic knowledge of Spanish is a requirement though.

In 2-3 months time I will be doing something similar, once my current contract finishes it will be time to flee this pit of a country. At the moment Buenos Aires is looking the most likely destination.

[burningyen]

I understand that Argentina is home to a sizable British population, as well, if that makes any difference.

[Jofer]

According to the IRS, Table games in NATO countries are non-taxable. If you win one million dollars playing craps, roulette, blackjack, or even poker, you don't have to pay US or UK, French, Italian, taxes on it. This does not apply to Canada though. Both Americans and Canadians are required to pay taxes on substancial winnings in both countries. If you're looking for a tax free way to make money, commute to London /images/graemlins/smile.gif