Mid pair on turn, flop was checked through

[Fat Nicky]

3rd hand at table, so no reads.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

<font color="blue"> Anyone raise this in hopes to clear out the blinds? </font>

Flop: (5 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (2.50 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises....</font>.

Comments?

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

Fold preflop.

On the turn you're investing a lot of money relative to the size of the pot with a hand that's probably not the best. I'd drop it to the turn bet and not feel bad about it at all.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really fold this taking into consideration the junk that the average unknown party player will limp into pots with?

[billyjex]

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[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really fold this taking into consideration the junk that the average unknown party player will limp into pots with?

[/ QUOTE ]

JTo is still a pretty marginal hand. It's probably not really +EV or -EV if you limp on the button after two limpers, but I'd rather avoid the situation.

On the turn.. you might be ahead, but, yeah, you're investing alot of money into a small pot. It doesn't seem worth it if you do win the hand.

[PokerBob]

Me likey.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really fold this taking into consideration the junk that the average unknown party player will limp into pots with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this hand should hit the muck preflop. The is an EASY fold. You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

[Bob T.]

Seems standard to me.

[Rico Suave]

Bob:

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You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

What things should I be reevaluting?

--Rico

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really fold this taking into consideration the junk that the average unknown party player will limp into pots with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this hand should hit the muck preflop. The is an EASY fold. You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really can't believe what I am reading from so many. Folding JTo from the button for 1 bet??? I was actually thinking about raising this hand to eliminate the blinds to get it 3 handed. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The main reason I limp, or even raise, is because typical party player limp with all kinds of trash. If the flop comes J or 10 high, do you really think you're behind??

[PokerBob]

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Bob:

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You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

[/ QUOTE ]


What things should I be reevaluting?

--Rico

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Your pf play. JTo really has only one way to win, i.e. the straight. Do you feel good if a J or T is top pair, but you get action?

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
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Bob:

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You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

[/ QUOTE ]


What things should I be reevaluting?

--Rico

[/ QUOTE ]

Your pf play. JTo really has only one way to win, i.e. the straight. Do you feel good if a J or T is top pair, but you get action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against passive party players that are calling when I bet w/top pair, I feel pretty good w/top pair.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really fold this taking into consideration the junk that the average unknown party player will limp into pots with?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this hand should hit the muck preflop. The is an EASY fold. You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really can't believe what I am reading from so many. Folding JTo from the button for 1 bet??? I was actually thinking about raising this hand to eliminate the blinds to get it 3 handed. /images/graemlins/ooo.gif

The main reason I limp, or even raise, is because typical party player limp with all kinds of trash. If the flop comes J or 10 high, do you really think you're behind??

[/ QUOTE ]

The BB likely won't fold to a raise, as he is most likely getting 7:1 on his call, making a wide range of holdings worth calling with. What do you think limped in behind you that you are ahead of? J9o? T7s? K8o? Oh wait, you are BEHIND K8o. It's not about winning a lot of pots, it's about winning the most money over time. JTo is marginal in this respect.

[Bob T.]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this hand should hit the muck preflop. The is an EASY fold. You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

You are on the button, and noone has shown any aggression preflop, I think that you can try and slide into this pot for 1 SB, and see what happens. I might bet the flop though, noone seems to have a king, and if have pocket 8s or a bad king, I would probably be good here. It seems like a good spot to try and pick up a small pot.

[PokerBob]

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Against passive party players that are calling when I bet w/top pair, I feel pretty good w/top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, OK. I guess I don't. IMO QTo is a crap hand that Party fishies will limp with, and you may be staring it in the face if you get any action here.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this hand should hit the muck preflop. The is an EASY fold. You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

You are on the button, and noone has shown any aggression preflop, I think that you can try and slide into this pot for 1 SB, and see what happens. I might bet the flop though, noone seems to have a king, and if have pocket 8s or a bad king, I would probably be good here. It seems like a good spot to try and pick up a small pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

If that is the case, would you not come in raising to show strength immediately?

[adsman]

Any two cards ten or higher on the button with limpers before you for one bet is a clear play. Raising the turn with a nothing pot is dubious. It's a shame you haven't got any reads on the other players as LP often check top pair if they have no kicker.

[Bob T.]

I wouldn't raise, but I think trying to get into this pot for one bet on the button is perfectly reasonable.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that this hand should hit the muck preflop. The is an EASY fold. You need to reevaluate a few things if you think this is a limpable hand PF.

You are on the button, and noone has shown any aggression preflop, I think that you can try and slide into this pot for 1 SB, and see what happens. I might bet the flop though, noone seems to have a king, and if have pocket 8s or a bad king, I would probably be good here. It seems like a good spot to try and pick up a small pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, he indicated he had no reads. At .5/1 or 1/2 I may assume the worst, but at 3/6 I'm not sure I give everyone fish status immediately.

[Fat Nicky]

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Against passive party players that are calling when I bet w/top pair, I feel pretty good w/top pair.

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Uh, OK. I guess I don't. IMO QTo is a crap hand that Party fishies will limp with, and you may be staring it in the face if you get any action here.

[/ QUOTE ]

QTo is one hand in a range of many that party fish will limp.

[PokerBob]

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I wouldn't raise, but I think trying to get into this pot for one bet on the button is perfectly reasonable.

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Bob, I think you may have the discipline to get away from top pair with this hand. I guess I don't. If I flop a J or a T and get lotsa action, I'm scared, but not scared enought to muck.

[Bob T.]

If that is the case, would you not come in raising to show strength immediately?

No, because they are going to see the flop, and I probably need to outflop them. When everyone checks an unraised pot, it shows that there probably isn't that much interest, and I might claim the pot with my position.

[Bob T.]

I was just thinking, that if I had JTs in this position, I would probably raise, so it can't be that bad to play JTo.

After limping preflop, If it was two bets to me, on the flop with top pair, I would probably be gone, but if it was just one, I would raise, and then try play the rest of the streets for one bet.

If you win, great, if you lose, you probably get the value back later, when you raise the flop with a better hand.

[JoeU]

Nicky,

I think the problem with playing JTo in this spot is that you have no reads against your opponents. Even the most marginal of opponents will play hands like AT, KJ, QJ, KT, QT, etc from this spot. I do understand that you do have position on your opponents, but this is probably a hand you'd be better off walking away from.

Having said that, if you decide to play this hand, I like calling better than raising. With 2 connected cards, you are most likely looking to flop some sort of straight draw. This is best done cheaply. If you hit your draw, or even make your hand, you can raise the snot out of them with position.

Joe

[Rico Suave]

Pokerbob:

[ QUOTE ]
Your pf play. JTo really has only one way to win, i.e. the straight. Do you feel good if a J or T is top pair, but you get action?

[/ QUOTE ]

The bottom line is that I do not mind limping on the button with a marginal hand against 2 opponents who do not particularly like their hands. And, I am not just looking for the straight, I am generally happy if I flop top pair....although I certainly wouldn't get married to the hand.

What is a bit amusing is that I am way tighter than most SSers.

--Rico

[Gravy (Gravy Smoothie)]

Another consideration in deciding whether or not to play this hand preflop is the high likelihood of overcards even if you do flop a pair. I dunno about you, but having JT on a KTx flop is not a fun hand to play 5-handed, even in position.

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
I was just thinking, that if I had JTs in this position, I would probably raise, so it can't be that bad to play JTo.



[/ QUOTE ]

JTs is infinitely more powerful than JTo. Raising with JTs is expected here, but JTo is just too borderline for me to care and will hit the muck.

A J or T high flop, there's a good chance you have the best hand, but you can also be easily dominated or outdrawn.