should i move to "real money"?

[elmitchbo]

i guess my question really comes down to how different is the level of play between the "play money" games and the low stakes "real money" games? the level of play in the "fake money" tables is atrocious, but i get the impression that the play at the low stakes isn't much better. any body have any impressions they could share from when they made the switch?

maybe i'm a sissy, but i don't want to put money on the line until i'm sure i can win with it.

about my game... i've read all the standard books like Super System. i've also read Small Stakes Hold'em which is how i found these forums. i've been lurking alot and picked up some good info. i play a regular cash game, and at least one local tournament a week. i do well in both. the few times i've played in vegas i've come out ahead. in the "fake money" online i make about 11BB/100. its a small sample so far(a few thousand hands, because i've just started keeping records) but it looks like there's not much deviation from the average. i know that supposed to come down with a larger sample, but i'm sure it will still be a solid number. i can multi-table effectively. i'm sure i could handle 4 or 5 tables at least.

should i expect to beat the competition at a $2/$4 table? i've got a lot of time on my hands that i'd like to put to good use.

[AncientPC]

Yes, even if you only play super-microlimits. You will learn nothing playing around with play money.

[Rudbaeck]

Atleast move to a $0.01/0.02 table, and start making your way up as you gain confidence.

I personally started at $0.10/0.20 tables. Freerolls and bonuses padded my bankroll while I was a losing ring game player. It's pretty quick going until you can beat these limits thouhh. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[richrf]

Hi elmitchbo,

I'm a newbie supreme, so I will let you know what I am doing.

As I mentioned in another post, I have settled on playing in Paradise, where the play money games are plenty tough. Amazingly so. I have found that I have tons of things to learn even at this level - such as counting outs, choosing opening hands, picking up tells online, learning different strategies and applying them. In many ways, the play money guys on Paradise may be tougher than the money guys on other forums, since these guys seem to be the "smart money" as oppose to the "fish".

When I first got onto Paradise, I was slaughtered. I promptly dropped half of my bankroll and noticed that I was playing 60%+ plus hands - just like they do on the micro tables at most sites. Really sloppy. By the evening, I was down to 30% and had not only recovered my backroll but was up 25%. That was good, and I am glad I didn't stay on the other sites longer. Not only is the competition better on Paradise, but I was not seeing nearly as many straight-flushes as I did on the other sites. :-)

So for the next few weeks, I am practicing "Zen Poker". I am being patient, and gradually moving up the ladder. There is no rush for me, as long as the competition is good and tough - and it is. No use for me to lose money until I understand the players on Paradise. In the meantime, I am reading and am looking at getting a computer program like Poki to further toughen up my skills.

I don't think there is much reason to wade into the "money world" at this time, until I really understand it. There is lots to learn just there, including bonuses, financial accounts (and how to secure them), rakes, rakeback deals, etc. For me, it is a step-by-step process. Basically, if I am going to become a "fish", I want to be one that is really hard to catch. :-)

Rich

[AncientPC]

I generally try to be nicer on the beginner forums but this post has too many errors that I can't help myself:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a newbie supreme, so I will let you know what I am doing.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Hi, I just started but would like to give you advice."

[ QUOTE ]
As I mentioned in another post, I have settled on playing in Paradise, where the play money games are plenty tough. Amazingly so. I have found that I have tons of things to learn even at this level - such as counting outs, choosing opening hands, picking up tells online, learning different strategies and applying them. In many ways, the play money guys on Paradise may be tougher than the money guys on other forums, since these guys seem to be the "smart money" as oppose to the "fish".

[/ QUOTE ]

"I didn't realise there was so much to poker but I feel smart talking about things that are considered poker basics! Since I have not played poker before except on the Paradise play money tables I think my opponents are really really good!"

[ QUOTE ]
When I first got onto Paradise, I was slaughtered. I promptly dropped half of my bankroll and noticed that I was playing 60%+ plus hands - just like they do on the micro tables at most sites.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I was playing like a fish and I finally realised that everyone was playing like me!"

[ QUOTE ]
Really sloppy. By the evening, I was down to 30% and had not only recovered my backroll but was up 25%.

[/ QUOTE ]

"I've never heard of variance before but was really happy that I was up 1/4 of my bankroll after 100 hands!"

[ QUOTE ]
That was good, and I am glad I didn't stay on the other sites longer. Not only is the competition better on Paradise, but I was not seeing nearly as many straight-flushes as I did on the other sites. :-)

[/ QUOTE ]

"OMG online poker is rigged!"

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there is much reason to wade into the "money world" at this time, until I really understand it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't tell me you're dispensing advice to others while still on the play money tables on Paradise. There is absolutely nothing wrong with starting out as a newbie, everyone was one at one point or another but don't be giving out advice when you don't even know what you're doing yourself.

[mcteecho]

Ooooooooooohh, grumpy old AncientPC! Your last point is obviously a very good one, but such a curmudgeonly way of conveying it! He's just starting out, and has actually made a real effort on some other threads, and his post is, indeed, goofy, but then it's the Beginner's Forum . . . Surely you can save your (admittedly, funny) criticism for the real trolls on 2+2?

Just sign me,
Sticking Up For The New Guy

[mcteecho]

And, sorry, just to add something useful to the thread - you're only going to learn by playing with real money, because people don't have to make sensible decisions with play money. You sound like you've had some success, so as long as you limit your BR sensibly you should be fine - you may lose some dough, but that's the cost of learning, and if you play .1/.2 it won't be more than two bucks a lesson. So go for it. And before AncientPC jumps on me, I'm a long-time lurker and new poster, and I've managed to increase my BR by 70x so I'm not completely talking out my ass (although I may still be a bit).

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
should i expect to beat the competition at a $2/$4 table? i've got a lot of time on my hands that i'd like to put to good use.


[/ QUOTE ]

Don't start at 2/4. It's a million miles from play money.

[jrz1972]

Surely you can afford $50 or so to stake yourself at Stars or someplace else that offers micro limits. Don't waste your time at play money.

[richrf]

Hi again,

I was browsing through another forum and I came across this thread. Similar topic with a broad spectrum of viewpoints. I thought it might be helpful to you also.

http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/forum/phpbb/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7224&sid=7c227ccc8e0735af0aa45e123 45f59c6

Cya,
Rich

[elmitchbo]

$2/$4 is a million miles from play money? really? i guess i shouldn't be surprised, but i am. the local tournaments i play in are full of people(college kids) who play 2/4, and i'd feel comfortable putting my money against them anyday. maybe they are the bottom of the barrel that you guys feed on. anyway... good advice form everybody. sounds like a little micro play to build up some confidence would be the way to go.

[elmitchbo]

that was very helpful link.. thanks. i think i'm going to drop some money at a site where i can play micro limits and work my way up.

[elmitchbo]

very sensible advice. thank you.

70x your bank roll in what period of time?

[Rudbaeck]

The live 2/4 games play like online 0.05/0.10

I think the online 2/4 plays alot like live 10/20 - 15/30. You very very rarely see 8 to a flop with capped betting preflop, while this is the norm in many live 2/4 games.

[K C]

First, while there are some things you will learn from the play tables, it's just for getting used to the game, and I wouldn't put any weight at all into the results.

I seriously doubt ANY play money tables are "tough," although if this were possible, Paradise would be the place. You know when there's a huge guy and everyone calls him "Tiny"? Well the same rationale holds true for them calling this place Paradise. It's not a place for new players to be sure. The games are way too tight and you can find a lot better games just about anywhere else, regardless of the level.

It's far better to start out at the micro micro limits than the play tables. Believe it or not, these people tend to guard their pennies pretty tightly, as opposed to the free for all nonsense you find with play money.

KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

[richrf]

My primary aim, with play money, is to get a lay of the online poker land. Getting use to the software, reading the hands, understanding what kinds of software others may be using on me, understanding the various alternatives available to me: e.g. bonuses, rakes, rakebacks, and of course the different sites.

All of this has nothing at all to do with play money vs. real money. The big barrier, for me, in getting involved with real money is isolating my finances from anything that may interact with the online financial system associated with online gambling (for security reasons) and of course I need to investigate the legal issues.

Is a play money game like a .02 game? Well probably as much as a .02 game is like a .25 game or .25/.50 is like 1/2. Each level is different. Phil Gordon quoted someone in his book, I forget who, who basically said, when you play poker you shouldn't think about it as money - but as chips. Well, if I can get to that point, then really it doesn't matter which level I am playing at - but I think I am a long way away from that.

So jumping from play money into real money isn't like drinking a glass of water. There are things to consider, and for now, my games on Paradise are tough enough for me and I am learning plenty in the process. While I am marking time, I am reading books, investigating software, surveying opinions of different sites on different forums, which is keeping me very occupied.

Others certainly may want to approach this differently. But patience, caution, and a certain degree of skeptism has served me very well in my life.

Rich

[mcteecho]

About 10 months. I've done well mainly in MTTs - they seem to suit my style of play.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
$2/$4 is a million miles from play money? really? i guess i shouldn't be surprised, but i am. the local tournaments i play in are full of people(college kids) who play 2/4, and i'd feel comfortable putting my money against them anyday. maybe they are the bottom of the barrel that you guys feed on. anyway... good advice form everybody. sounds like a little micro play to build up some confidence would be the way to go.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying the players are good; most of them are terrible. But they're terrible in a much better way than play money players are terrible.