Getting them to fold? Did I play this right?

[Terminator]

Hi,

I just wonder if sometimes, no matter what you do, you cannot make people fold.

I'm A5 on the BB. It's raised in LP, and I call it to protect my blind. Guy in LP is not too fishy (or so I thought).

Flop comes A46 all clubs (I have no clubs). Only me, on MP and LP raiser in. Raiser bets it out, and I decided to check-raise, MP folds and raiser calls. Next card is another club. I decided to push it here, and check-raised him again, to which he called again, and I worried a little over AKc, but figure he would have capped it on the flop or raised me on 4th if that had been the case. River is a third Ace for me, and I bet it out and he duly calls.

He turns over JJ, one of which is the club to take the hand down.

I know I couldn't have done anything more, and that he caught the flush but I think his call to my check-raise was wrong. Would anyone concur?

T.

[csuf_gambler]

fold this garbage preflop

[Terminator]

I was BB.

Is there any way to delete unhelpful posts/responses?

T

[shadow29]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm A5 on the BB. It's raised in LP, and I call it to protect my blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.

Check out the micro-limits board.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm A5 on the BB. It's raised in LP, and I call it to protect my blind. Guy in LP is not too fishy (or so I thought).

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why would you call with A5o in a small pot?

I don't like the check-raise on the flop here anyway. Wait until the turn to charge more when you have a higher edge. Or to get away from an obviously 2nd or 3rd best hand when the 4th club falls.

"I decided to push it here"

Why check-raise on the turn when you are almost surely behind? I don't get that either. It's not like you are going to get someone to lay down an average flush for one more bet on the turn.

I actually don't mind how the JJ played the hand. Not bad. If anyone played the hand "fishy", it was you.

[Terminator]

Okay, to clarify, irrespective of my call on the BB (which I didn't think was that bad).

Is his call on the FLOP wrong? I certainly think his call on the river was wrong given what went before. Essentially, he was calling when he could have been beat by a large variety of hands (A6, Kc, etc.)

T

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, to clarify, irrespective of my call on the BB (which I didn't think was that bad).

Is his call on the FLOP wrong? I certainly think his call on the river was wrong given what went before. Essentially, he was calling when he could have been beat by a large variety of hands (A6, Kc, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

His call on the flop isn't bad. What.. he should lay down JJ with a flush draw for one more bet? People don't fold to check-raises for one more bet. They call (rightly so).

His call on the river was perfect. What.. he should lay it down for fear you have exactly the 2 cards which can beat him? You say "a large variety of hands". If two cards is a large variety, maybe I'm missing something.

I think you played the entire hand wrong. If you are expecting people to lay down a J high flush with only the K and Q which could beat them, you will be bluffing at all the wrong times.

Again, the check-raise on the turn makes little to no sense. The check-raise on the flop is debatable, but not bad. Betting out on the river was necessary given how you had played the hand. But "hoping" someone will lay down a hand like that for one bet is not good strategy.

You may not like my view (or anyone elses) of how you played this hand, but you keep asking, "Did I play this right?" and "Did he do the right thing?"

The answer to the first question is obviously "no".
The answer to the second is "yes", but he still could have played it a little bit better.

[zephed56]

[ QUOTE ]
I was BB.

Is there any way to delete unhelpful posts/responses?

T

[/ QUOTE ]
Quit whining, he's trying to help you, and he was right too.

The MP limper means it's not a LP blind steal.
Against a decent player, you are way behind most of the time. Most of his raises will be pocket pairs and big aces.

Don't limp with this crap either. (It was offsuit, right?)

So let me reiterate, fold this crap preflop.

[Terminator]

I guess the fact that under these circumstances had I been him I would have laid it down is what's different here.

Sure, I'm on a (possibly second best) flush draw, but the fact is that there's an Ace on the flop, and unless I catch my flush (and even if I do) I'm already beat. Maybe I'm giving it up too easy?

On the flop, I'm 57% to win it, but [obviously] that all changes once the turn comes. From my calculations of odds, at the flop, he's got 11 outs (2 J's and 9 clubs) so only needs to be getting 3-1 (or thereabouts) so it does make his call correct.

There were more than two cards that could beat him on the river. AA, A6, A4, Kc, Qc, 66, 44.

T.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
There were more than two cards that could beat him on the river. AA, A6, A4, Kc, Qc, 66, 44.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. I forgot the board was paired. Still, he would have to be damn sure you had two-pair or better on the flop. That isn't going to be the case most of the time.

And yes, if you are laying down ANYTHING for one more bet when you already have one bet invested in the round, you are giving up far too easily. You almost never fold that unless you are positive in your reads.

[dealer_toe]

I don't think you should be trying to make people fold in such a small pot. His fold would have been pretty weak-tight. I don't think it's worthwhile for you to make an attmept at this, because more times than none he's gonna be calling you down.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I would have laid it down is what's different here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, 3-handed, I think you'd be wrong to fold the third-nut club draw here.

Your preflop call was atrocious, and you're suggesting he fold the flop?

Rob

[Terminator]

[ QUOTE ]
Still, he would have to be damn sure you had two-pair or better on the flop. That isn't going to be the case most of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

But that's kinda my point... I tried to signify I had him beat by check-raising (how else can I show/represent strength on this flop), not once but twice, and still he didn't fold. I cannot imagine many people would check-raise with just top pair on that flop (though I did of course, but at the flop I did have him beat). I suppose I could have just bet it out, rather than check-raising, but again I think he'd have called it all the way anyway.

It strikes me that (thinking from his perspective) it could have gone either way and he was just unable to give up his pockets and had already put significantly in the pot and was hoping he was winning.

But it goes against the argument that aggression wins at poker. Mind you, this is limit, and low-limit at that, so maybe that doesn't apply.

[Entity]

There are two options: either he wasn't thinking, or he was able to think on a higher level than you. Regardless, you got beat, and deservedly so.

I wouldn't try a checkraise here on any level, because you won't make a high club lay down even a small pct% of the time. Often a decent player will 3-bet for free card potential, and then you really won't know where you stand; does he have a better Ace? Does he have KcQc? You won't know, and you're going to end up paying 3BB to find out.

See why there are so many problems with calling with this hand preflop OOP against a non-steal raise?

Rob

[MaxPower]

If I were your opponent I would have played it the same way. Stop looking at his play and examine your own. You made a bad pre-flop call. I think check-raising the flop was good, but check-raising the turn is too much. What are you trying to accomplish with that check raise?

[Joe Tall]

The posters in tried to help you by telling you to fold preflop. They are correct, your A5 is likely a dominated hand, suited or not.

However, what you will hopefully understand, someday, you WANT the player w/JJ to call on every street.

Welcome to the forum,
Joe Tall

[Terminator]

Thanks - this is excellent feedback.

I am sure I read in one of my books that whilst on the BB calling a single raise with Ace-rag (and a lot of other poor hands - three space connectors even!) isn't that bad a move, but you should show aggression with it if you hit, and if you get significant playback then fold it. If he'd capped the flop, I'd have been out of there, but he didn't (maybe he WAS thinking on a higher level, as I've sometimes feigned weakness like that (though I'd have had AA, or the KQc as someone suggested if I were to do that so as to tag him along).

But thanks for the feedback - I think the pre-flop call was a leak, but given the lengths people go to, some decent players also, in protecting their blinds with hands much worse than Ace-rag, I can't be sure. Like I said, there seems to be a difference of opinion on it somewhere so I think I'll see how much it affects my play by folding it for the time being until I can see/confirm how bad a play it really is.

[sexypanda]

Since there seems to have been an MP limper then an LP raisor, its less likely he's on a pure steal, thats why you have to fold this pf. If the LP player open-raised, I can see you arguement for "protecting your blind". In any case, the flop check-raise is fine, you pushed out the MP limper. Now that it's heads up, I really like leading the turn here. If he doesn't have a club, he'll most likely fold. A check-raise is getting too fancy and doesn't really accomplish anything. If he calls your turn bet he almost definitely has you beat I'd check-fold the river. That river ace was the worst card for you, it makes it really hard for you to fold that river, but with a 4-flush on the board and a pf raisor calling you down, you really have to think about letting this go.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
wouldn't try a checkraise here on any level, because you won't make a high club lay down even a small pct% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the key point. Plus, nobody folds to a check-raise when they are invested and it's only one bet to them. They would often be very incorrect if they did fold.

Check-raising here is only to get more money in the pot. You can't force him to call 2 bets cold. There is never a point where your check-raise would have knocked him out.

[MaxPower]

The main reason for folding is that there is already a limper, so the raiser most likely has a decent hand. If he open-raises from late position and is known to try to steal with a lot of hands that is different. If you think you can outplay him after the flop perhaps you can call (or re-raise), but even then A5o is not a great hand to defend with.

After check-raising the flop, I would bet the turn and fold to a raise unless the guy was a total maniac. If he was a total maniac, I would just check-call the turn and river.

Also, Joe makes an excellent point that you actually want the guy with the jacks to call you down.

You should also be happy that he called you on the river. I'll let you guess why.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]

You should also be happy that he called you on the river. I'll let you guess why.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be true if he really plays his sets and two-pairs this way.
In my experience (small stakes), a river call here is safe against average players.

But youre right about wanting him to call you down. The problem is value wasn't the OP's goal here. I think that's important to note.

[Terminator]

Hi,

Thanks for the responses.

Things I've learnt from this are:

1. Fold A5o (or similar) on BB unless you're confident it's a steal raise from LP (and he's not a solid player).
2. Check-raising should only be done when you have the best hand and to get more money in the pot, not to push out people.
3. I'm probably giving it up too early in instances like this where the situation is reversed.

Thanks again for your help.

Always learning.

T.