easy does it

[Tommy Angelo]

Three players limped (L1, L2, L3). I was on the button with JJ. I raised, the blinds folded, and the limpers called. The pot was four-handed with me last.

The flop was 10-8-8 twotone. L1 checked, L2 checked, and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten, an eight, or a draw. I called, L1 folded, and L2 called. Three players.

The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

The river was a queen. L2 checked, so I put him on a miss. L3 checked, so I put him on a ten. I bet, L2 folded, and L3 called.

[PittRounder]

I think you have to find a flop or safe turn raise here. I've been reading most of your posts; do you ever pop a flop or turn raise in? It doesn't seem as though you do. IMO you need to protect your hand from KJ, A9 or whatever gross peel L1 and L2 may make. Also, in most games I play in the bet out means a T or underpair, an 8 would likely go for a checkraise at some point.

[Kaz The Original]

I wouldn't like it so much if it was 10-7-7, or 10-9-9 but here you are either pretty far ahead or really far behind. Plus it might strike the fear of TA into these people.

[Michael Davis]

"The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us."

If you put him on a ten or an eight then not raising here at the very least was awful since you can fold to a threebet and would either give yourself a lot more safe cards on the river when L2 folds or charge him an extra bet to draw. Plus you're getting called on the river by a T anyways. You earned a lot less than you should have here.

-Michael

[afish]

Two bad things can happen if you raise the turn:

(1) L3 folds his 10 rather than paying you off on the river

(2) L3 three bets with less than trips and you decide to fold. There is no way I'd fold to a three bet here, so I think calling is the right approach.

[William Jockusch]

Another advantage to just calling is that it may induce bluffs.

[lil']

IMO you need to protect your hand from KJ, A9
I don't think you want to protect your hand against someone drawing to 3 outs. If they want to call, that's fine.

[kurosh]

You're not afraid of overs hitting?

[Turning Stone Pro]

Not raising the flop, thereby giving the folks with overcards the right odds to call and catch, is poor poker. Nothing unusual. Just consistent poor advice and weak play.

Nice to see that there are those out there who are intentionally giving poor advice, keeping down the overall level of talent. Much appreciated.

TSP

[Turning Stone Pro]

Like, when a K hits on the turn, and one of the early fellows, who would have folded to two cold on the flop, bets into you. Congratulations on inducing this nice bluff. If it were me that bet when the K came, please go ahead and call my bluff.

c'mon, guys, this is Romper Room stuff. I think that 2+2 is supposed to demonstrate a slightly higher level of poker prowess.

TSP

[William Jockusch]

Is the purpose of your post to throw barbs, or to provoke mature discussion of the merits?

[bigfishead]

Played perfectly. Some will never get it.
Ni Han Tommy.

[highland]

Agreed.

on a flop of T72r this play is incorrect. It's even worse with the T88. Any 8 will check-raise with you immediately to his left. His holding is insecure (a T probably) and he wants you to knock out the field with a raise. Moreover, L1 or L2 might have bet out an 8, making it even less likely you're behind here.

[Turning Stone Pro]

The latter. I am trying to demonstrate how incorrect this thinking is by using colorful language and an example people will understand.

Believe me, inducing bluffs with two cards to come with a hand very susceptible to overcards is an extremely poor (i.e., expensive) strategy.

Your lucky a fellow like me is here to tell it the way it is, even if the 2+2 in-crowd is ocassionally offended. Small price to pay, IMO.

TSP

[Sqred]

I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[Trix]

Wouldn´t you want to protect your hand from the other two when L3 puts in bet number 10 ?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Three players limped (L1, L2, L3). I was on the button with JJ. I raised, the blinds folded, and the limpers called. The pot was four-handed with me last.

The flop was 10-8-8 twotone. L1 checked, L2 checked, and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten, an eight, or a draw. I called, L1 folded, and L2 called. Three players.

The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

The river was a queen. L2 checked, so I put him on a miss. L3 checked, so I put him on a ten. I bet, L2 folded, and L3 called.



[/ QUOTE ]

I guess I'll make this simple. I'd raise the flop for obvious reasons, but since you choose to pretty much always wait til the turn to see where you're at, I'll just accept it and move on.

On the turn, you put the first guy on a draw, and the second guy on a ten or an eight. So, this one is easy. You raise. You can let the first guy call with his J9 or QJ or 97 or 67 if he wants, or fold it if he wants. If he calls, all the better. The next guy isn't going to three-bet you without an eight. You know it, I know it. So just sneak a raise in there. You will make two more bets when you are ahead and lose the same when you are behind. Will you explain why there is any good reason to not raise the turn, besides laziness? I don't buy the "I don't want to open myself up to a bluff" line, because you are better than someone who would irrationally fear something like that.
-James

[skp]

Sure, Tommy made the most he could in this particular spot by not raising the flop but that does not make calling the correct play. You would be singing a different tune if some other cards came on the turn and river.

The flop bet came from Tommy's immediate right when he was the PFR. Usually, that means "no trip 8's". Tommy has two guys left to act behind him. When Tommy just calls, those guys are likely to also put the bettor on a Ten and peel one off. Even if they only have 3 outers, that's 6 outs together plus whatever outs the bettor may have. Therefore, this is an easy (and must) raise for Tommy. There are already 10 plus small bets in the pot. This is not the time to think about inducing bluffs on later streets by merely calling on the flop with a vulnerable-ass hand.

I find it odd that you think that the river bet is risky. IMO, Tommy played that street perfectly. I really don't think he played the flop optimally though as explained above.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

[hockey1]

bingo

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop, thereby giving the folks with overcards the right odds to call and catch, is poor poker. Nothing unusual. Just consistent poor advice and weak play.

Nice to see that there are those out there who are intentionally giving poor advice, keeping down the overall level of talent. Much appreciated.

TSP

[/ QUOTE ]

you keep on pointing out that tommy gives out poor advice, but i've never seen tommy suggest anyone play like he plays or see him give bad advice when looking at other peoples' hands.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]

you keep on pointing out that tommy gives out poor advice, but i've never seen tommy suggest anyone play like he plays or see him give bad advice when looking at other peoples' hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point

[sublime]

you keep on pointing out that tommy gives out poor advice, but i've never seen tommy suggest anyone play like he plays or see him give bad advice when looking at other peoples' hands.

nevermind that tommy only posts hands that he knows will get people chatting. what he doesnt post are the 99% of the hands he probably plays by the book.

[MN_Mime]

[ QUOTE ]
"The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us."

If you put him on a ten or an eight then not raising here at the very least was awful since you can fold to a threebet and would either give yourself a lot more safe cards on the river when L2 folds or charge him an extra bet to draw. Plus you're getting called on the river by a T anyways. You earned a lot less than you should have here.

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't JT or T9 confidently 3-bet the pfr on the turn knowing Tommy's got overs and poor position in this hand. If Tommy raises to protect, he might lose his customer and be drawing to 1 or 2 outs against the 8.

I don't see how you can protect your hand against a multi-draw board like this where you are going to hate more than half the deck AND you are possibly behind. Any overcard, any middle (straightish or boat-building) card, any flush card. Even an undercard doesn't feel quite right with the drawing limper in there.

[mike l.]

nice hand R1.

[stabn]

He kept the three way action going until the river. What's better than that? Why force someone out when he can make more money on every street this way.

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
Played perfectly. Some will never get it.
Ni Han Tommy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please. We call these people "winning players."
-James

[pudley4]

[ QUOTE ]
He kept the three way action going until the river. What's better than that? Why force someone out when he can make more money on every street this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not make the player who is on a draw (Tommy's words) put in 2 bets on the turn, especially since he's not going to put any in on the river when he misses...

[stabn]

On the turn we'd be making L2 call two cold. Do we know L2 will call two cold on a paired board with his draw? Or are we likely to force him out?

[James282]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn we'd be making L2 call two cold. Do we know L2 will call two cold on a paired board with his draw? Or are we likely to force him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both results are better for us than him calling 1 bet if he has a legitimate draw.
-James

[MN_Mime]

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn we'd be making L2 call two cold. Do we know L2 will call two cold on a paired board with his draw? Or are we likely to force him out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it matter? If you're L3, don't you pretty much auto-pop Tommy back regardless of your holding?

If Tommy drives out L2 for you and you're no longer fearing the 8, you're telling him you can beat overs or can draw to it and he's going to have to call 2 more.

If L2 is on the draw (or is letting the T bet out for his 8) but still finds a call then L3's in a bit of a pickle, but can Tommy handle any more action? I'm sorry, but I'm sure Tommy's beat if L3 pops him again in this scenario and may be drawing to a 1-outer.

Maybe L2's call keeps L3 in check; that's a table read we can't make. I don't think there's any action Tommy is going to like if he raises the turn.

[edtost]

[ QUOTE ]
Does it matter? If you're L3, don't you pretty much auto-pop Tommy back regardless of your holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tommy doesn't play against you. His "special class of super retards" is completely different than the ones we see every day - which is probably why his play is often as mike l.'s gets on occasion, though in the other direction.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there's any action Tommy is going to like if he raises the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly.

[stabn]

[ QUOTE ]

Both results are better for us than him calling 1 bet if he has a legitimate draw.
-James


[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. A lot of players could be in that spot with semi-legitimate draws though. Gutshots who think their pair draws may be live, and underpairs who think their hand might still be good. I think a lot of these would willing donate one bet all the way through on the chance their hand is good, or maybe be good if they hit their bad draw.

You are probably right in thinking that the pot is big enough we don't need to go for overcalls, and would be better off protecting our hand if we're ahead.

[golferbrent]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like it a lot. You made 4 big bets without ever taking the chance of being bluff raised. If you raise the flop you will lose L2 and would probably miss a river bet when the Queen hit and it is checked to you. It is important to realize that Flop agression is a conservative play. In these situations it is best used to slow or stop action. You got a ton of action with a hand that was very hard to draw out on. What would you have done if either player proceeded to check raise the river, call I presume?

The more I think about it, you made the most you could while losing the least if you were beaten. I also think the river bet was a little frisky, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

With all due respect, I think you're way off base here. First, (chronoligcally, not in terms of importance), you for some reason think that being raised on a bluff would be a bad thing. I'd welcome it with my JJ, 'cause I ain't folding them to a single raise. Second and third (the two are related), you for some other unexplained reason seem to think that a raise would drop L2 and that Tommy's JJ is "very hard to draw out on." If L2 is on a decent flush draw then he's got at least one overcard to Tommy's JJ, which gives him ELEVEN outs. If L1 has a T and an overcard to Tommy's JJ, then that's another five outs. Make no mistake, Tommy's hand is very vulnerable.

Overall, I don't think the hand is as bad as some of the other stuff Tommy's posted lately, but I think that Tommy's reads were right: L1 had a T and L2 had a draw -- neither of which is at all likely to fold to a raise with this reasonably big pot -- and in that situation raising either the flop or the turn is the far better play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I absolutely agree with the reply... if your are confident in your reads after the flop you must put in a raise on the turn... otherwise stop trying to put people on a hand... if you're not going to use your ability to make more money...

The only question I see is where do you put in a raise...

Do you do it on the flop to thin the field and let your opponents define their hand... that is certainly what the L3 wanted to happen... my thought on the flop is interesting... i think the call is ok here b/c... you are not likely to get any reasonable draw to fold and definitely not an 8... so why not call... IMO call here lets opponents define hand a little better as it turns out... when everyone folded except for L2.... then the hands are reasonably defined and you must put raise in on the turn... otherwise you are just playing passively... and weak...

Overall... it depends on what you want to do... but a raise on one of the streets is imperative... and personally I would put it in on the turn...

[Michael Davis]

Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

A "player" will if he sees this opportunity. Not a weak-tight or a rock tho. They dont have the balls to make a move like that. I see the above mentioned "move" often enough on a weekly basis to agree completely with TA's play with certain lineups, as well as with other reasons already mentioned.

This is a depends hand. And I see good reasons for a few ways to play this hand. Tommy played it one way that I like under certain circumstances/lineups.

Why do so many think it's "auto this" or "auto that" and not even close? Possibly from lack of experience or knowledge of players/lineups?

Hell I dunno....just trying to expand my viewing screen. Maybe I'll see a new movie.

[andyfox]

"The flop bet came from Tommy's immediate right when he was the PFR. Usually, that means 'no trip 8's'."

Usually yes. But probably somewhat less than usual if the guy knows Tommy. Tommy is more likely than, say, I would be, to check behind when everybody checks to him on the flop and also more likely than, say, I would be, to not raise on the flop with an overpair.

Paradoxically, knowing Tommy may make it less likely that the two guys behind Tommy have an 8, as they would probably be more aware of the possibility of the flop being checked through than were, say, I, the original flop raiser.

BTW, good to have you back. Glad to hear about your happy trip to India and your grandmother's fortitude.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm seeing alot of replies that go along the lines of "if you put L2 on a draw you should have raised the turn" If you look more carefully at the post you'll notice he didnt put him (L2) on a draw until after he (tommy) had already acted. So, the fact he puts him on a draw shouldn't really factor into the decision to raise or call the turn.

This is not the way I would play the hand, but I certainly see good reasons for playing it the way he did. Just my 2 cents.

[schroedy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why force someone out when he can make more money on every street this way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Three reasons:

Ace

King

Queen.

I usually agree with T, but this time I gotta think that these Jacks have been overplayed. This hand is frighteningly vulnerable and I think T should do everything in his power to end the hand as quickly as possible. The money I lose when someone plays back at me is not going to add up to the money I stand to lose when (close to an astounding 50% of the time) an overcard to my pair falls.

This is not the time to go all passive. If he plays back, I will slow down (probably not fold in Party 15/30 because who knows what they raise with there), but I am raising to get the other players out on the flop or charge them more to chase if that is their preference.

[schroedy]

[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

Party 15/30. Raise = "I have chips." Reraise = "I have lots of chips."

[schroedy]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you can protect your hand against a multi-draw board like this where you are going to hate more than half the deck AND you are possibly behind. Any overcard, any middle (straightish or boat-building) card, any flush card. Even an undercard doesn't feel quite right with the drawing limper in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this is the theory, then fold should be getting some votes. But surely no one, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON, is even contemplating fold. We think we are probably, most of the time, ahead.

The fact that we may not stay there is reason to raise the flop and I would think the more ways we can get beat, the more reasons to push it on the flop.

[Lawrence Ng]

I like it.

Maximum extrapolated, minimum lossed.

Lawrence

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]

nevermind that tommy only posts hands that he knows will get people chatting. what he doesnt post are the 99% of the hands he probably plays by the book.

[/ QUOTE ]


I think you are probably right about that. However, that doesnt mean not raising the flop wasnt a mistake. Even if Tommy thinks there is a strong chance this guy is leading with a ten he still has to raise the flop, or at least pop the turn and fold to a three bet. To say nice hand or whatever here just isnt right.

[MN_Mime]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where do you guys play that JT and T9 will threebet this turn?

-Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

A "player" will if he sees this opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I think L2's actions are more interesting than Tommy's here.

By the turn, L2 has already put PFR on a top pocket pair by virtue of his flop call but has decided to continue his aggression despite L1 who hasn't completely defined his hand as draw (could be slow-playing an 8). I don't think it's a good play for any T, but it's the only chance he has to win the pot if that's L2's piece of the flop.

If Tommy plays back and L1 drops, doesn't L2 have to represent the 8 to win?

I think L2's 8 has to play it the same way against this board and try to get the PFR to raise the draw out of the hand (or at least charge him since PFR probably slows down).

---

Back to Tommy's hand, I'm not advocating a fold because he might be ahead, but any action he starts loses so calling down and value betting at the end is best in this situation.

[Softrock]

Reading this post and the responses really got me thinking - good job, Tommy. My first reaction was similar to TSP and others - how could you not put in a raise on the flop and/or the turn? However, whenever I see someone who is a successful poker player or who strikes me as thinking at a deeper level than perhaps I'm capable I always try to stop and think "Maybe he/she knows something I don't?" I think most of us mid-range players (yeah I'd like to think I'm above that but as Buddha would say "If you think you're there, you're not"). This is the sort of hand that may mark the difference between us journeymen and our superiors. Many of us are stuck with the "protect your hand" or "make 'em pay to draw" thought process. We should be thinking beyond this - ie. in this situation, what is going to produce the maximum yield long-term. This latter involves considering what you lose if behind, the reality of being able to "protect your hand" etc. Let me try to think at a deeper level here.

There are three likely occurrence as this hand unfolds. They are:

A) Tommy's already behind and drawing to a two-outer at best

B) Tommy's ahead and will remain ahead as the turn and river arrive

C) Tommy's ahead but the turn or river will beat him

If this is situation A, playing aggressively costs more money unless you can actually fold this overpair if you get heavy action. How many of you could actually do this? If you raise the turn and get re-raised would you consider a semi-bluff from J9 maybe suited? I think most of us cost ourselves money and probably cannot muck this hand if we play aggressively and get re-action.

Situation B - If you're ahead do you make more money just calling along or do you simply push out inferior hands that are drawing thinly by playing more aggressively? Maybe this question itself is a close call but now put this is peerspective with the possibility of situation A. Does any slight gain here by playing aggressively offset the loss of playing aggressively if you are actually behind? I doubt it.

Situation C: In many games, no matter what you do you are going to be called to the river by top pair or a legitimate draw. I agree with TSP that it hurts if you let AK get there on the river - is such a hand likely and would such a hand call the turn? Probably not. Is KT calling to the river regardless of what you do? Probably in most games.

My point that I may not have demonstrated as artfully as I'd like is that on further thought I think Tommy's play is the better one here and one that I probably don't make.

I'm also reminded how much I love playing with those who think they've arrived as poker players and are not capable of recognizing what they don't know or at least considering that their approach and thought process may have flaws. I recall one of my favorite passages from the novel "Catch-22". Yossarian and the guys keep teasing Haversham that he has flies in his eyes. Haversham goes into the bathroom and looks in the mirror and says he's checked and he does NOT have flies in his eyes. Yoasarian's reply is something to the effect of "You can't see that you have flies in your eyes because you have flies in yor eyes". Rather apropos of poker don't you think?

Thanks Tommy.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
By the turn, L2 has already put PFR on a top pocket pair by virtue of his flop call

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? A flop call looks a lot more like overcards than a PP.

Justin A

[Rick Nebiolo]

[ QUOTE ]
"The turn was a five. L2 checked and L3 bet. I put L3 on a ten or an eight. I called, and L2 called. I put L2 on a draw. Still three of us."

If you put him on a ten or an eight then not raising here at the very least was awful since you can fold to a threebet and would either give yourself a lot more safe cards on the river when L2 folds or charge him an extra bet to draw. Plus you're getting called on the river by a T anyways. You earned a lot less than you should have here. -Michael

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a big fan of a turn raise but I'm not sure the typical player can fold to a threebet unless he really knows L3's play. If L3 has been influenced by the Southern California nutty-aggressive style (or perhaps TV poker) the mere presence of two eights on the board (and the fact that L3 knows his pre flop raising opponent is unlikely to have an eight) often induces some frisky reraises. By the time the jacks are in position to call or fold to an L3 reraise the pot will have over 13 big bets (including the likely call from the L2 draw) or over 10 big bets (if the L2 draw was knocked out by the jacks original turn raise).

Combine the uncertainty that a reraise means an eight with the chances you can spike a river jack and I believe the decision to call a reraise on the turn is at least close and very player dependent.

Good thread but I'd like to see Tommy involve himself more beyond the original pot-stirring post /images/graemlins/smile.gif

~ Rick

[Tommy Angelo]

"Good thread but I'd like to see Tommy involve himself more beyond the original pot-stirring post"

I read the whole thread and I'm staggered by the wealth of wisdom. I got nothing to add strategywise except somebody said something about me not putting L2 on a draw until after he called the turn. That is correct and it was kind of important at the time. One of the reasons I lagged on the turn was that I knew I was going to find out cheap if L2 had slowplayed an eight or not.

Another kind of important thing was that I had such a dead read on L2 on the river that if he had hit an overcard on the river, I would have known. And I also knew that if L3 had bet out, that he had just passed up JJ on the last card somehow. If either of them had bet the river, I was going to fold, and it was going to be right to do so. Not a bad spot.


Tommy

[dankhank]

wow i was about to say how much i like this line and then tommy comes on saying he would've folded the river to a bet by either player. if L3 bets the river (which he could quite possibly do with a T, no?) then i make one more lazy call and see what's up. sure, you still have the L2 in there who might call with his spiked Q, but it's still worth seeing a showdown i think.

james282 point about "you and i both know L3's not three-betting without an 8" is a valid point, on the other side of the argument. but i still love this line. it lets you know where you're at, it's safe, and it's extracting money. oh and if L2 hits his Q-K-A on the river he might check it anyway, and you can see the showdown for free. or you can get frisky like tommy, at the last possible moment, when he knew his hand was good.

[schroedy]

[ QUOTE ]
wow i was about to say how much i like this line and then tommy comes on saying he would've folded the river to a bet by either player. if L3 bets the river (which he could quite possibly do with a T, no?) then i make one more lazy call and see what's up. sure, you still have the L2 in there who might call with his spiked Q, but it's still worth seeing a showdown i think.

james282 point about "you and i both know L3's not three-betting without an 8" is a valid point, on the other side of the argument. but i still love this line. it lets you know where you're at, it's safe, and it's extracting money. oh and if L2 hits his Q-K-A on the river he might check it anyway, and you can see the showdown for free. or you can get frisky like tommy, at the last possible moment, when he knew his hand was good.

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me ask you this: if you had the option to pick up all your chips, put them in your pocket, and declare all in on the flop would you take it?

To me this is not a hand where you want to build and build and build your profit. This is a hand where you just pray to God that somehow the hand can end right here.

[Gabe]

[ QUOTE ]
Good thread but I'd like to see Tommy involve himself more beyond the original pot-stirring post

[/ QUOTE ]

He doesn't do any stirring, but he usually provides the pot.

[schroedy]

Flashback to Laugh-In, Dem Convention in Chicago, Bell Bottoms, Halter Tops, Farah Fawcett . . . .

Yes I really am that old.

[roy_miami]

[ QUOTE ]
wow i was about to say how much i like this line and then tommy comes on saying he would've folded the river to a bet by either player. if L3 bets the river (which he could quite possibly do with a T, no?) then i make one more lazy call and see what's up. sure, you still have the L2 in there who might call with his spiked Q, but it's still worth seeing a showdown i think

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I could be wrong but I think he is basing his laydown on the river on his experience with these players and physical tells. If he is 95% confident in his reads then it is appropriate to make the laydown. This would be a foolish laydown online, but for Tommy in a live game he can do it profitably.

[Peter_rus]

There is no way i can play this hand in this manner. I would raise flop. There is 10SB in a pot and i hate KQ to call down 1 SB as well as gutshots like Q9. I prefer to fold on turn if 3-betted on flop to L3 and i would have strong read that T cannot play this way. And even more i prefer to take down pot right now on flop if im allowed.

[elindauer]

Hi Tommy,

You should substantially discount an eight on the flop as so many players would go for a check-raise in that perfect spot with the field trapped between them and the preflop raiser.

As such, the only reason not to raise the flop is to hope a good card comes off and you can raise the turn. Your line saves bets when you are behind, but loses as many when you are ahead, which is more common, not to mention giving you many more ways to lose the entire pot. Raise.


-Eric