Why I am playing at Paradise - For Newbies

[richrf]

Hi guys,

I've been surfing the online poker sites, tried out some, looked at things like rakes, bonuses, number of players, software, etc., and decided on playing at Paradise for the time being. Here are my reasons, and of course I would be interested in feedback from others, especially other newbies who are in the same position as I am - that is, we don't want to become "fish", we rather be the sharks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

1) First and foremost, I felt I had to have some reasonable assurance that the shuffle is a fair shuffle. All of the companies are off-shore and not subject to U.S. law. The only thing I can rely on is some outside, respecting agency that audits the software shuffle. The only major site that I have come across that does is is Paradise, which has an outside Internal Auditing company, PriceWaterHouseCoopers, come in every 3 months to audit the shuffle. The audit seems reasonable on the surface. The auditors come in and match log records with history records (the ones that users use) to confirm the data is real, and then they confirm the probabilites of the shuffle are reasonable. While others (e.g. Poker Stars) claims to have an audit, it is completely different. Poker Stars only has the random number generator confirmed (any program can do anything with a RNG, it means nothing), and the auditor isn't a recognized Internal Auditing firm. The RNG audit may be legit, but note that PriceWaterhouse did something compeletely different - and valid. This means a lot to me.

2) Paradise has strong players. For a newbie, this is important since I want to improve my game and I don't want to learn bad habits. Instead of palying 60%+ hands, on loose boards, I am playing closer to 30% on Paradise. This is what I would expect. It is tough - but I want to be toughened up.

3) Paradise has micro limit games for newbies (.02/.04, .05/10) without any rakes.

4) Paradise has a low initial deposit with 25% bonus.

Let me know what you guys are doing and what you have found out.

Rich

[BruinEric]

Good post, thanks. I have only played Party Poker and Paradise. I signed up for Paradise because of a generous sign-up bonus.

I like both sites, but until the next Party reload bonus, I'm sticking with Paradise. I believe I need to continue to work on appropriate agression and folding appropriately post-flop, and I would much rather do that at .25/.5 than .5/1.

Very important in the equation is that Party's rake on post over $5 is .5. The rake for Paradise for the same pot is .25. That difference alone can be meaningful.

Whoever gets me a bonus that can be cleared at low limits (i.e., not requiring pots over $10 to 'count') gets my business!

That said, I am an overall "winner" at Party so far and an overall "loser" at Paradise...no matter.

One of the things I like best about Party Poker in comparison to Paradise is that Hand Histories from Party Poker reveal the final showdown hole cards for all, even the "mucked" cards. This is VERY helpful when determining which players carry horrible hands to showdown.

Of course, it's hard NOT to like the wide selection of full games at Party Poker. The number of players in ring games at Paradise is considerably less.

I also like the .1/.2 limit at Paradise in case I get on tilt (which makes me weak-tight) and need to REALLY practice post-flop aggression.

I like the speed of cashouts to Neteller from Party Poker. I have not yet cashed out of Paradise.

[richrf]

Thanks much for the feedback BruinEric. Paradise even has lower micros that they have no rake at all on. Once I feel comfortable that I have my game in gear in play money, I'll move into the micros. Frankly, the game is pretty tough even in micros, so I think I can hone plenty of skills there.

I am not sure why the play is so tough in Paradise's play money, but it is much tougher than anywhere else I played. So, it is a really good place for me to bring up my skill level quickly.

I agree with what you are saying about rakes. Rakes can really eat into winnings (or cause full tilts) if they are too high. I'm not saying that rakes in Party are excessive, but it makes a big difference if I'm paying no rakes, .25, or .50 - especially as I am in the process of learning. Why lose a lot when I can lose a little. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Good hearing from you. Let's see what others have to say.

Rich

[kvcobra]

Very good points, guys. Richrf, well done on the advance research. I agree; Paradise is my site of choice for all the reasons you have covered. Stats are better, too; in-game stats are great, and table stats are better than everage.

I admit that I also play at Empire (basically a Party skin), but that's just when I feel like feeding on the fish.

There are a lot of sites I haven't played real money at b/c of cash in/out policies. My Visa declines most sites, and I refuse to pay a "2nd rake" (Firepay, Neteller, etc.). I use Visa at Paradise (it works) and IGMPay (completely free) with Empire.

[richrf]

Great feedback kvcobra. Nice to know that Visa is the way to go. Can I ask how you cash out? How quick are the cashouts? Thanks for the info.

Rich

[Mike_S]

Rich you need to check this out
"building a bank roll for newbies" in the search

[richrf]

Thanks for the heads-up Mike. For those interested in the thread Mike has referenced, here is the link:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1060198&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&fpart=2&vc=1

I bookmarked it for future reference.

Rich

[LazyRobot]

[ QUOTE ]
I refuse to pay a "2nd rake" (Firepay, Neteller, etc.)

[/ QUOTE ]

If you use Neteller and the basic EFT (wait 5 business days) you will not pay any fees.

[richrf]

Thanks for the info lazyrobot.

[TomR]

Just a few suggestions/comments:

1) PWC did not audit anything at Paradise. They performed some agreed upon procedures. Huge difference. If Anderson had done the same at Enron instead of an audit they wouldn't have gotten in trouble for what they didn't find. I was an auditor for six years for one of the big firms and currently do risk advisory for another one. What PWC did at Paradise doesn't make me anymore comfortable with Paradise than I am with any of the other major sites that you will see recommended around here. Just to give you some idea of how little PWC does at Paradise, I would guess they spend maybe 40 hours on this review each quarter, if that, while an audit of a major company takes tens of thousands of hours.

2) PokerStars also has relatively strong players at the micro levels.

3) So does Stars.

4) In the Classifieds on this site is a code for a 50% up to $100 bonus for your first deposit at Paradise. This is a great bonus for beginners due to its relatively low deposit to maximize the bonus, it's percentage and ease of clearing. I would suggest maximizing this bonus by depositing the full $200. If your bankroll isn't big enough yet, I would suggest starting on Stars until you have built your bankroll. Another advantage to starting at Stars is that they don't have bonuses for new accounts so you won't be wasting any potential bonus with too small of a bankroll as could happen at Paradise. One disadvantage to Stars is their minimum deposit is $50.

So if your bankroll is $200 Paradise is great with the bonus from the classifieds, otherwise I would suggest starting at Stars.

[richrf]

Hi TomR,

Thanks for your comments. Really appreciate this kind of feedback to keep me on my toes and learning.

1) Yep, you are absolutely correct. PWC, did not audit Paradise. All they did was, as you stated, perform some agreed upon procedures examining both the shuffle _and_ the RNG and matched it up with audit history to confirm. There are lots of ways for a company like Paradise to undermine such an audit, but at least it is _something_. The rest of the sites are just unknowns at this time, and until they all beging to submit to audits, it is just a big question mark.

Does it make me any more comfortable what PWC did at Paradise? Well, just a drop. Something was done. And it was done by PWC, and not some obscure software house in Australia that just looked at a RNG (absurd). I immediately felt the difference in play when I went to Paradise. We'll see. For now, that is where I am playing, and this is the reason. I have no reason to go to sites with absolutely no technology audits of any kind. If the shuffle is skewed just a tiny bit - the whole game changes. Ask Sklansky. :-)

2)I never tried out Poker Stars at the micro level. All I did was try out the play money, and the play was very weak compared to Paradise. Plus - well I was really "lucky" on my deals.

3) Thanks for the bouns advice. I think another poster Mike, gave me the same advice. If I remember the code is Granny. I will recheck once I decide to sign up for money. As I said in my post, my primary criteria (by far) is a fair shuffle. Without that, my whole game goes to pot. A shuffle only has to be slightly skewed (for everyone) to change the whole game. Those players who may have grown use to a skewed shuffle, may not even notice it. But someone like me will be eaten alive, since I am playing with another "probability table". It just takes one line in a software program to do this, and no one needs to know. Until these programs are totally audited, sourced tight (so they cannot be changed between audits), I am concerned and I will take my time.

The play on Paradise play money is plenty good for me right now so I will watch and see how things develop - and listen to the good advice I am getting from members on this forum such as you.

Thanks again,
Rich

[AncientPC]

1) All sites are independently reviewed. If you choose not to play elsewhere it's your loss.

2) Paradise does not have strong players relative to other sites. Secondly, you need to learn how to play vs loose and tight players. I thought playing poker was to have fun and make money, not trying to find some tough players to play against.

3) Stars, UB, and Pacific also have limits that small.

4) Most other places have a higher initial deposit up to $100 which is standard (not taking the Granny bonus into account).

5) You failed to mention one of the few things that seperate Paradise Poker from the pack - they accept credit card deposits.

6) They offer Pineapple, 5 stud, and 5 draw games as well which aren't found on many other sites.

[richrf]

Hi AncientPC,

Thanks for replying.

1) I have done some research on the "independent" reviews of each site. I will start up a seperate thread on that subject so that I can get further clarification. What I have come up with is meager.

2) Everyone has their own reasons for playing games. Some of the best players give their winnings over to charity (apparently they do not need the money). For me, it is the competition. As James Colburn said in "The Magnificent Seven". :-)

3) Thanks for the heads up on the credit card usuage at Paradise. I did notice it and I think someone else mentioned it. I think this is helpful for me in my situation. But I am not all that crazy about the security of these sites - so we shall see. If they don't store my credit card on their server, then it is fine.

4) I'm not familiar with the games you mentioned, but no surprised. I am just newbie trying to stay alive right now.

Thanks much for the added info, and I will be starting up a newbie thread on the auditing subject to see what is really there and what is not. Lots of people talk that it exists, but so far no one has been able to provide me with factual information, beyond the small grains that I have been able to find. My guess is that this poker forum, given its pedigree, is most interested in facts.

Cya,
Rich

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise has strong players. For a newbie, this is important since I want to improve my game and I don't want to learn bad habits. Instead of palying 60%+ hands, on loose boards, I am playing closer to 30% on Paradise. This is what I would expect. It is tough - but I want to be toughened up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow.
Well..
AncientPC already tried, but I know you can't be reached.
So just know this is an incredibly silly statement.

[richrf]

You know, I am not really all that good at fishing, but one thing I do know is that in order to have good fishing you have to have to keep the ponds stocked.

Thanks for the advice, but I think I will take it easy at the beginning.

Rich

[MortalWombat]

AncientPC said:
[ QUOTE ]
5) You failed to mention one of the few things that seperate Paradise Poker from the pack - they accept credit card deposits.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you elaborate on this please? I was under the impression that it was the credit card companies who were the ones denying transactions at gambling sites, not the websites themselves. Is this different for Paradise for some reason?

Thanks.

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
AncientPC said:
[ QUOTE ]
5) You failed to mention one of the few things that seperate Paradise Poker from the pack - they accept credit card deposits.

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you elaborate on this please? I was under the impression that it was the credit card companies who were the ones denying transactions at gambling sites, not the websites themselves. Is this different for Paradise for some reason?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Paradise has found some way around it; I'm not sure how.

I've deposited using my debit card, I've known others to use their credit card as well.

Gambling on credit is a bad idea though . . .

[MortalWombat]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Paradise has found some way around it; I'm not sure how.

I've deposited using my debit card, I've known others to use their credit card as well.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks for the quick response.

I was thinking of using my Paypal Mastercard, which is basically a debit card that takes money out of my Paypal account whenever it's used. Do you know of anyone who has gone this route?

[AncientPC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yes, Paradise has found some way around it; I'm not sure how.

I've deposited using my debit card, I've known others to use their credit card as well.

[/ QUOTE ]Thanks for the quick response.

I was thinking of using my Paypal Mastercard, which is basically a debit card that takes money out of my Paypal account whenever it's used. Do you know of anyone who has gone this route?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but you might as well try. The worst that could happen is that your card declines it.