Did I mess this up? Flopped wheel in 100max nl

[Seether]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB ($146)
BB ($94)
UTG ($190)
UTG+1 ($63.9)
MP1 ($100)
MP2 ($270.4)
MP3 ($225.23)
Hero ($100)
Button ($129.35)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif. MP1 posts a blind of $2. Hero posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 (poster) raises to $4</font>, MP2 calls $4, MP3 calls $4, Hero (poster) calls $2, Button folds, SB calls $3, BB calls $2, UTG calls $2, UTG+1 calls $2.

Flop: ($32) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets $8</font>, MP1 calls $8, MP2 folds, MP3 calls $8, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $45</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $90 (All-In)</font>, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP3 folds, Hero calls $45.

Turn: ($236) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($236) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $236

I knew when he re raised that 67 was a major possibility, but I felt that a set, or a flush draw, or pair + flush draw or pair + straight draw or straight draw+ flushdraw might act in the same way. Were the stacks too shallow to get away? Was my raise way too much?

[Benal]

You know that was clearly an easy fold preflop right?

[Wayfare]

Fold preflop. Who are you making money from with A2o?

and YAY veteran!

[tbach24]

It seems as though this point has been made a lot, but I'll hammer it in. Fold preflop. And as for two pair being good, the only hands that you will get action with two pair are a high two pair, a set, or a nice draw, and even the draw can hurt you badly (difficult to lay down two pair at times). I don't play A2o in any situation (except maybe very-shorthanded.), and especially not in a full game.

[Seether]

I dont know if you guys noticed but I posted, I didnt call originally. Also I felt that with a min raise and this many callers I was definantly getting the implied odds on this call.

Anyways, what would you do if you were big blind, and this was an unraised pot with the person with the 67 straight being utg and checking?

[soah]

In order to use implied odds you need to have a hand which is capable of winning a large pot. With A2o you'll have a hard enough time even winning the small pots, let alone big ones. Even two pair with A2 is a shaky hand as you will often run into the bigger two pair or you'll end up counterfeited by the board pairing (A8278, etc). Even a wheel is the bottom end of the straight. Making deuces full leaves you vulnerable to sets which made the big full house. Making aces full is a little bit stronger, but on that AJ2KA board are you sure you're not up against AK or AJ? I mean, they must have *something* in order to play a big pot against you. Making quads is probably good, but will you get action?

So to summarize, implied odds come from having a hand capable of making the nuts or somthing close to the nuts. A2o needs to make quads in order to have the nuts. So it sucks. I would never consider putting any money into the pot with it except in certain situations where I can see the flop heads up against an opponent who is likely to have a weak hand.

[fimbulwinter]

that's a great explanation as to why some hands, almost independant of implied odds, should be folded if there is an admissions price.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
that's a great explanation as to why some hands, almost independant of implied odds, should be folded if there is an admissions price.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you complete A2o in the SB with a few limpers?

I feel it's very similar, except here Hero has button as well. He posted, I see very little fault in calling the minimum.

PF was ok. A2o is not nearly as bad as 72o as one poster claimed.

Do I suggest playing A2o on the button with a full limpers regularily? Probably not, but I wouldn't lambast OP for his PF play.

[Chipp Leider]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you complete A2o in the SB with a few limpers?

I feel it's very similar, except here Hero has button as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the same thinking at first BF, until I ran some quick sims. It seems the lowest offsuit Ace you can call with here is AK, as the spectrum of hands we could be facing is significantly stronger than that of when facing limpers. Of course that's obvious, but I thought it would be at least closer than it actually is, even AQo is a loser in every scenario I checked out.

I guess this shouldn't be so suprising, everyone knows AKo breaks down pretty dramatically multi-way, so I guess we shouldn't expect A2o to hold up 8-way, even with the pot odds we're getting with the post.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems the lowest offsuit Ace you can call with here is AK, as the spectrum of hands we could be facing is significantly stronger than that of when facing limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhhh what?

[AncientPC]

Fold pre-flop. The times you make two pair, wheel, or TPNK holds aren't offset by the times you miss / lose to a hand that dominates yours.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]

PF was ok. A2o is not nearly as bad as 72o as one poster claimed.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would prefer 72 to A2 in this spot. with a flop of AAx, A2 makes no money (and could lose a lot), whereas a board of 77x, 72 can drag a nice pot, especially if somebody pairs the non-7 card with a good kicker.

when you flop 1 pair with either hand, you can't have any confidence, but at least with 72 you have 5 outs to a probable winner, as opposed to 3 with 72.

[Seether]

I think everyone knows it was bad preflop and questionable at best, but the fact is I didnt even ask for any comments really preflop. I think for the most part NL preflop is pretty cut and dry and based on your playing style. I like how I made a post asking about what my play should have been if I was the BB and the person with 67 was utg and the action remained the same with me checking initially on the flop and I recieved no response. It seems as if many on this board are focsuing on a minor portion of nl (preflop play) and not where the real skill comes into play in no limit which is post flop play.

[Chipp Leider]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems the lowest offsuit Ace you can call with here is AK, as the spectrum of hands we could be facing is significantly stronger than that of when facing limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]

uhhhh what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm just saying that you can't compare this situation to SB defense with limpers due to the stronger range of hands you likely face, and that according to my analysis even AQo is very possibly a loser here. Was my post that confusing?

[Seether]

So become someone min raises you would lay down AQ? Do you play in the 100nl? People will min raise with a very very wide range of hands, most specifically drawing type hands. The people that make min raises with ak are the ones that dont keep their stack for very long.

[Chipp Leider]

[ QUOTE ]
So become someone min raises you would lay down AQ? Do you play in the 100nl? People will min raise with a very very wide range of hands, most specifically drawing type hands. The people that make min raises with ak are the ones that dont keep their stack for very long.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry I misread your post, I thought there were more cold-callers before you. Anyway, I still firmly believe Axo is a loser here, and that ATo would be the lowest offsuit Ace worth a call here. JMHO

[mwalsh2020]

The reason why they are hammering on you to fold preflop is because you won't have to deal with problems after the flop if you avoid playing hands like this.

[BobboFitos]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems as if many on this board are focsuing on a minor portion of nl (preflop play) and not where the real skill comes into play in no limit which is post flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and no.

Yes, postflop play is more important (relatively speaking) than preflop play.

No, it's not more important on party, when stacks are 50x BB. Preflop play is everything, and then flop play. With such short stacks, you dont even have to play the turn or river well to win alot of money.

So, if we increase your stack, (to the point we have to worry about a bigger straight) we can actually talk about real flop play. On party, the major error (which is even debatable imo) is the PF play.