battle of the blinds

[schwza]

i've been thinking about how to play when everyone folds to the small blind. my understanding is that aside from the fact that the unseen cards are probably ace-heavy (since the folded cards are less likely to be aces), the hand should play like a heads up hand.

consider this heads up situation: you are on the big blind, with the button. blinds 10/15, you both have ~1000. you are dealt 88, and the SB raises to 85. you would be insane to fold here (i assume no one will disagree here).

yet in a STT thread, many people did suggest folding 88 in the BB in a battle of the blinds. this seems nuts to me. (see thread here (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=singletable&Number=1434286 &Forum=,All_Forums,&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&M ain=1433478&Search=true&where=&Name=18623&daterang e=&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyp rev=#Post1434286))

there is some survival value here that doesn't exist in a heads up game, but that early on a STT should play like a cash game. what the dilly?

[citanul]

I'm confused by your post:

you state:

"you would be insane to fold here (i assume no one will disagree here)."

and then immediately:

"yet in a STT thread, many people did suggest folding 88 in the BB in a battle of the blinds."

now, it may be true that, to you:

"this seems nuts"

i haven't reread that thread, but i remember it had a pretty good discussion of why various people would do what they would do, most of them, i think, said they would fold. is there some more specific question you'd like to ask in relation to that thread? i ask because clearly your assumption that no one will disagree here, is completely off base, so there must be something more you are looking for.

i apologize if i was supposed to take "what's the dilly?" as the overall question.

citanul

[schwza]

sorry, maybe that wasn't clear enough. here is what i do not understand:

- many people advocated folding in the STT w/ 88 on the BB.
- my belief is that you would be bonkers to fold 88 in an analogous heads up situation.

why is it that folding is reasonable in the STT situation but incorrect in the HU situation?

[sofere]

[ QUOTE ]
why is it that folding is reasonable in the STT situation but incorrect in the HU situation?

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Because in the HU situation (a) your in the money already (unless its a HU tourney), and (b) you can't just sit back and watch people knock each other out.

[ QUOTE ]
but that early on a STT should play like a cash game.

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Is this true? I thought it was just the opposite. I thought ITM should play more like a cash game. In cash games you try and take advantage of every small edge. Early in the tournament, you want to shy away from small advantages so you can survive to the bubble. But ITM, you wanna take risks to be able to take 1st.

HU, I wouldn't just call the raise, I'd push back.

[Awesemo]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about how to play when everyone folds to the small blind. my understanding is that aside from the fact that the unseen cards are probably ace-heavy (since the folded cards are less likely to be aces), the hand should play like a heads up hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference between this and a heads up hand is that most of your opponents are probably still playing like it is a full table, even though everyone folded. Since he raises to 85, you can expect him to have a big hand! If someone raises to 85 from the button, this would be an autofold. I doubt that your position will help you any in this hand either. If you just call your opponent will probably bet out on the flop and you still will not know where you stand. If you go allin and get called, you will be a 55/45 favorite at best, which in a STT is not favorable enough to be +ev by the ICM

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
The difference between this and a heads up hand is that most of your opponents are probably still playing like it is a full table, even though everyone folded.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think assuming that a single opponent is an idiot is not a good strategy.

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I doubt that your position will help you any in this hand either. If you just call your opponent will probably bet out on the flop and you still will not know where you stand.

[/ QUOTE ]

position always helps.

i'm not advocating a pre-flop push, and everything else that you mentioned applies equally to a HU cash game, where folding 88 would be incorrect.

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
Because in the HU situation (b) you can't just sit back and watch people knock each other out.


[/ QUOTE ]

i think this is the best argument.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought ITM should play more like a cash game.

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my understanding is that far from the bubble, a tourney plays similarly to a cash game. assuming 3 spots pay, when there are 4 or 3 players left, you gain immediately from someone else busting. so it could pay to do something that's always wrong in a cash game, like putting in the BB for 40% of your stack and then folding to a raise. 5 left is kinda like 4, and 6 is like 5, etc. so 10 is most like cash (except heads up, which is identical to cash).

confimation/mockery from others?

[SuitedSixes]

Everyone is missing the core argument in the previous post. No one is arguing that 88 is a weak holding. Those who advocate folding do so because they feel a better opportunity will probably arrive later because it is still early. In a HU situation (I assume we are talking final two of a SNG), you are not sure if you'll ever get a better chance than this because HU when you are posting a blind every hand you do not have the luxury of picking and choosing your spots. Early in a SNG, I fold AQ to a min-raise, HU I call an all-in with it. See the difference?

[citanul]

This may be the most concise answer yet. Nice.

From the other post, from what I remember, and my opinions on the subject now that I'm looking at this again, my thinking goes like this:

In heads up, specifically with the blinds never increasing, I think that folding is a bad bad play. It's an edge that you clearly can't pass up, preflop.

In the SNG universe, 85 chips is 1/12 of all your chips, on a hand that is going to be difficult to play post flop, almost every time. You're not assured that you are going to stack your one opponent if you do nail your hand, which would make this an easy call if it were true. Since you will often win a small pot heads up here, investing your chips in this manner is less of a good idea than conserving your chips, waiting for players to bust, and using the extra weight of the 85 chips in your stack to steal more, better, later.

The ramblings of a man on his first cup of coffee.

citanul