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elfleader
01-05-2005, 02:52 PM
I was playing in a 200 dollar sitngo at party when this hand came up. It was around half way through i ahd around 1.5k in chips with around 5 people left. I was in the sb when i came upon JJ someone in mid position made a min raise which was 100 with the blinds at 50/100. i decided to just flat call and so did BB. the flop was 356 with 2 clubs. I check bb raises 300 and mp guy min raises...what would you do next??

Insty
01-06-2005, 10:01 AM
fold.

Why didn't you re-raise preflop?
Did you have any reads on anyone?
(not that it makes much difference) did you have Jc?

dinero2433
01-06-2005, 11:14 AM
You need to get serious and raise before the flop with JJ. You can't let the big blind get in with a discount holding any two cards. If the middle position raiser were to come over the top of you again preflop with a big raise after you reraised him, then you probably have something to worry about - a min reraise is a common tactic to get someone to play with you when you're sitting on Kings or Aces.

Because of your lack of information preflop, you would have to strongly consider folding your overpair in the situation you described. A flat call is a weak play, as it gives anyone betting straight or flush draws odds to continue. A raise is risky considering the action you have already seen - you may already be way behind against a bigger overpair, two pair, or even a straight (unlikely). Any callers would probably have you beat.

Excuse me for giving you a lecture, as that is not my intent, but the situation you described should never have happened. With a hand like pocket Js, you really need to find out where you're at preflop.

Unarmed
01-06-2005, 11:32 AM
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Excuse me for giving you a lecture, as that is not my intent, but the situation you described should never have happened. With a hand like pocket Js, you really need to find out where you're at preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing wrong with his PF play, and if the original raiser does in fact have KK/AA and a decent stack, his play is perfect.

schwza
01-06-2005, 11:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Excuse me for giving you a lecture, as that is not my intent, but the situation you described should never have happened. With a hand like pocket Js, you really need to find out where you're at preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's nothing wrong with his PF play, and if the original raiser does in fact have KK/AA and a decent stack, his play is perfect.

[/ QUOTE ]

even if MP has hero covered ( OP : we need to know others' stack sizes), it's still marginal in my opinion. hero would be calling 150 out of his 1500 stack. if the blinds were significantly deeper, you could play JJ for set value, but here, i think you need to play it like a big pair.

i like a reraise all-in. there's 350 out there for the taking, compared to a 1350 stack, so picking it up now is valuable. i want to reraise to avoid playing a multiway pot out of position, and any 3-bet i make will make it impossible for me to fold to a pre-flop push. i'd rather not be stuck with 800 chips out of position in a 1500 chip pot on the flop if he flat calls pre-flop, so i'll just push and expect to win the pot now.

Unarmed
01-06-2005, 12:26 PM
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i like a reraise all-in.

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That was my first instinct too, but I think at the $200s it turns JJ into 22, and I'm definitely not pushing 22 here.

I really don't like any of hero's options here, but I can definitely agree that reraising for anything less than your whole stack is wrong. I'm calling here, and playing the JJ for overpair/set value. Yes, he's out of position, but the pot is only HU at this point with just the BB yet to act.

schwza
01-06-2005, 02:25 PM
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That was my first instinct too, but I think at the $200s it turns JJ into 22, and I'm definitely not pushing 22 here.

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i'm mostly a cash game player trying to learn STT. is it really proper for the pre-flop raiser to fold a hand like 99 if hero pushes? i would've guessed that with only 15 bb's, 99 is looking pretty strong.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, he's out of position, but the pot is only HU at this point with just the BB yet to act.

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that's true... i had been sort of assuming the BB would come along, but that's got to be well under 50%.

Unarmed
01-06-2005, 03:07 PM
15 BB is a very healthy stack 5 handed with 50/100 blinds. If I had 99 and min raised (which I wouldn't do) and someone came over the top for another 14 BB I couldn't run away from my hand fast enough. Perhaps I'm overestimating the typical $200 level opponent, but from what I've heard, those games aren't real soft.

schwza
01-06-2005, 05:04 PM
well, i was assuming they weren't soft - i just didn't know what the "standard" play for a good player holding 99 against a push.

my guess was that good players will try to steal blinds frequently once it gets to 50/100 (although maybe not with a min raise), so resteals should be relatively common, so 99 would not be a bad hand to make a stand with. but perhaps i was wrong.

elfleader
01-06-2005, 10:28 PM
i ended up folding and the bb moved allin wth 46 the guy in md called and showed qq which stood up to THE bb'S pair and straight draw..I was gonna move in my self with a check raise but the reminraise from the guy in Mp made me suspicious and thats why i foldedd

adanthar
01-06-2005, 10:34 PM
IMO, you played this badly for the $10's-20's and perfectly for the $200's, which is why you're getting a bunch of people disagreeing with you.

I think the limit determines this play 100% of the time.

HoldingFolding
01-07-2005, 01:49 AM
If you have time, can you expand on the major differences between high & low level SNGs (I'm thinking of moving up from 20s/30s to 50s/100s).

adanthar
01-07-2005, 02:46 AM
There are a lot of differences - too many to list here - but in general, you want to start out assuming different things about an average player at each limit.

The average $10 and maybe even $30 big stack in that situation has no problem minraising, then calling his all in with 99 or K8o, which makes the all in a fine play. At the $50's, a minraise is either complete trash or AA (and you will know which pretty quick because he'll either never do it again or keep doing it.) At the $200's, I would start out assuming this is a slowplaying big pair, but in any event the worst hand that calls you is maybe AQs.

Certainly, calling for set/overpair value and then checking to see what the action is isn't wrong.

Bigwig
01-07-2005, 06:00 AM
I would have made a preflop reraise to define your hand, and drive out the BB.

rachelwxm
01-07-2005, 12:42 PM
5 people left with that stack, I think min raiser is either on a steal or has big pair, but you need to raise to find out. I would reraise to 500 and fold to a push PF. You still have a very workable stack here. If he call and flop rags, it would be very hard for me to get away from this hand.

Remember randomly he only get QQ-AA 1.3% of time.

Calling min raise fearing big pocket pair while giving bb good odds is not a good move to me. But I don't play at this level either. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Phil Van Sexton
01-07-2005, 01:34 PM
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I was gonna move in my self with a check raise

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As already stated, the min raise preflop often indicates AA or KK. Therefore, you just called to avoid the trap. However, you then say that you planned to check raise all-in on the flop. Does this make sense? If you are concerned about AA-QQ preflop, why go out of your way to put all your chips in on the flop?

I don't play the 200s, but why wouldn't you bet out on this flop? Bet the pot and fold to a raise. You get off relatively cheap if he does have a monster, and you'll get him to fold overcards if he doesn't.