Let's start a boycott of Pacific Poker!

[lefty rosen]

First the dickheads arbitrarily raise the rake, then they rake uncontested pots. What's next video poker odds! This is what the morons said in a reply to my email to them"However we are aware we have a problem with rakes, sometimes a player is
>raked of his bet.
>
>Our technical department is working on it and in a short time they will
>fix it.
>
>I apologize for any inconvenience caused and hope that you are not going
>to change your opinion about Pacific Poker.
>
>If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please
>feel free to contact us - we are here for you 24 hours a day, 7 days a
>week.
>
>Regards,
>Stefano
>Member Support Representative
>Pacific Poker...... Does anybody think they will do anything but put the memo in the trash bin....... /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[TimM]

Did I need another reason?

Add this to:

Not helping someone who got money stolen from Neteller (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1462497&page=3&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Not returning money to victims of collusion (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=663419&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

[AngryCola]

I'm already on board with the boycott. I didn't need another reason either. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[jasonHoldEm]

I haven't played there since they stole Jim Kuhn's money.

[Rhone]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played there since they stole Jim Kuhn's money.

[/ QUOTE ]

What did they do?

[Etaipo]

I intend to sign up there with a $100 deposit in order to get the WPT/WSOP DVD combo (through PSO through one of the 2+2 banner ads). Safe enough?

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
I intend to sign up there with a $100 deposit in order to get the WPT/WSOP DVD combo (through PSO through one of the 2+2 banner ads). Safe enough?

[/ QUOTE ]

See this is the problem. I don't think anyone ever said that deposits are not safe on Pacific. But it is very important for poker sites to do everything they can to gain customer trust. Otherwise, they are allowing trust for the entire online poker industry to erode.

When I mention to friends and family that I play online poker, what do you think the first think they ask is?

"If you send them money how do you know you will get it back?"

"How do you know the deal isn't rigged?"

"How do you know there aren't guys on the table on the phone with each other?"

The answer, is trust. Not trust in the poker sites, but trust in communities like this one to let us know if a site is trustworthy or shady.

When a poker site finds collusion and confiscates the accounts of the perpetrators, but keeps the money for itself instead of compensating victims, that is shady.

When someone gets their Neteller account information stolen, and their money transfered to some account at a poker site that is not in their name, and the site says it can't help them because they don't know whose account the money went to, that is shady.

When a site has known bugs in their rake calculation, resulting in more rake for them, that is shady.

A site like this should be shunned, especially by those who generate income playing online poker. Their actions erode the trust that new and existing players need to have in order to send money into a poker site, and a constant influx of new players and new money is needed to keep the games profitable.

[jasonHoldEm]

[ QUOTE ]
What did they do?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll admit "stealing" is probably a bit too strong of language but (in my opinion) that is essentially what happened.

Jim got burned by a collusion team, brought it to Pacific's attention, and Pacific agreed that it was collusion but confiscated the funds to "distribute back to players" (i.e. use as promotional money) instead of returning the funds to the players who were cheated.

They essentially used Jim's (and other people's money who were cheated) money to promote their site which (IMHO) amounts to stealing and exploiting players. I no longer play at Pacific because of this.

You can read the original thread here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=565559&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&vc=1)

J

[jukofyork]

This is nothing new... Pacific's sofware has always been full of bugs which *never* get fixed (eg: regular random disconections, random crashes after several hours of use, the pass your turn then wait for the betting to come back bug, 4-card flops in SNGs, illegal bets in MTTs, an almost guaranteed disconection at the start of every MTT means I usually miss the 1st hand, the occasional random free entry to a SNG, and the list goes on... /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

The latest bug is actually quite easy to minimize losses to, it just requires carefull consideration of pot sizes and opponents stacks before making large bets. As far as I have observerd so far, it only really costs the idiots who do crazy all-ins (eg: I have even seen some real crazy bets of about 100x the pot size, resulting in a small loss, even after winning the pot!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif)

BUT: unless this starts to upset the fish which play there, I would not leave for anything...

The way I see it is the more clunky and bug ridden the interface is the better /images/graemlins/grin.gif. The fish don't care and will carry on playing their anyway, and as the replies to this post show, the better players will start to 'boycot' the site, leaving an even higher concentration of fish for the few descent players left playing their.

Long Live Pacific (Bug'n'all!!!) /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[K C]

It's unfortunate to see stuff like this happen, and I'm not out to defend Pacific Poker here. However, the way I see it is that this is probably isolated incidents, and the chances of having something bad happen to you would seem to be very low. And we're in the business of playing the odds, and the odds seem strongly in our favor here.

We're talking about a place whose main promotion involves a "showdown race," where players are encouraged to go to even more showdowns than they already do, and it is very popular. Thank God for places like that /images/graemlins/smile.gif One of their people told me that this contest is so successful that they aren'even considering any other type of major promotion at this time, one that players with even a small clue would be interested in. What does that tell you about the competition at the site? Yum yum /images/graemlins/smile.gif

They also freely admit that their players are so bad that "since a great deal of our traffic comes from our casino, most of our players have an expectation of losing." Does it get any better than that?

So before we decide to pass up on a gift horse like this, it might be best to consider the whole picture before we decide not to play there because of remote incidents. On the other hand, I can understand why people are turned off by this - I sure as heck am too, and they need to get their act together a lot more when it comes to dealing and rectifying this stuff.

KC
[

[kvcobra]

Tim's dead-on. Pacific was the first online site I checked out, and I never went past the play-money stage because of all the bugs that were painfully evident then. I've never put money in a Pacific account, and I never will. IMHO, Paradise is the best overall site, although I do play Empire (aka Party Poker) when I want easier money.

[doppler]

What do you have to do to get a reply from Pacific? I have tried to contact them several times now about a cash out that seems to be stuck at "In process", but have not been able to get a reply.

I have also tried to contact them several times in the past about other issues without any success, but since others have got replies from them it seems they read atleast some inquiries.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
They essentially used Jim's (and other people's money who were cheated) money to promote their site which (IMHO) amounts to stealing and exploiting players.

[/ QUOTE ]

It also encourages them to find collusion where none exists. After all, they make money every time they do. Even if they only use it for promotion, it still benefits them. I'm not saying any of this ever happened or ever would, but you'd think the poker site would understand the need to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
they need to get their act together a lot more when it comes to dealing and rectifying this stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's all I ask.

All we need is for the general public, and especially those in political office here in the states, to start thinking that people are getting ripped off in online poker.

[jasonHoldEm]

Don't get me wrong, if Pacific got their act together, changed their management attitude, improved player security and debugged their software then I would be happy to play there (I did very well in their 5/10 game back when I was playing 2/4 at party). Basically, given the current state of things I don't feel safe playing there which is why I avoid the site.

Ultimately, my goal with this sort of thing is to make sure people make informed decisions. If people are aware of the risks and willing to accept the consequences if/when it happens to them I have no problem with it.

Peace,
J

[4thstreetpete]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What did they do?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll admit "stealing" is probably a bit too strong of language but (in my opinion) that is essentially what happened.

Jim got burned by a collusion team, brought it to Pacific's attention, and Pacific agreed that it was collusion but confiscated the funds to "distribute back to players" (i.e. use as promotional money) instead of returning the funds to the players who were cheated.

They essentially used Jim's (and other people's money who were cheated) money to promote their site which (IMHO) amounts to stealing and exploiting players. I no longer play at Pacific because of this.

You can read the original thread here. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=565559&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&vc=1)

J

[/ QUOTE ]

wow! thanks for posting. I read the entire thread and I'm thoroughly disgusted. I would totally lose it if I was Jim. I thought he was very professional.
I had always wanted to try out Pacific but after reading this there is no way I'm taking my business there.

[sthief09]

40 hands/hr in a softer game < 60 hands/hr at a soft game

[Joe Tall]

Jim got burned by a collusion team, brought it to Pacific's attention, and Pacific agreed that it was collusion but confiscated the funds to "distribute back to players"

I was at the table when this happened. I still have the hand number some where. I contacted Jim when this happened via PM and told him I would back up every he says and write Pacific a letter.

He never replied to me, ever. Guess he couldn't have tried that hard.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[BottlesOf]

They suck. Unless there's a mjaor software overhaul, I'm never going back.

[Equal]

[ QUOTE ]
40 hands/hr in a softer game < 60 hands/hr at a soft game

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true.

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you have to do to get a reply from Pacific?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pray.

[zephed56]

I just cashed out today. I can't stand the constant disconnections, and the NL cash game rake is murder.

[T.J.]

Hey Guys and Gals,,

Where do you recommend going. I signed up under a friend for basically the $75 bonus that I and he got. I just finished 3rd in a $5 tourney they had and won a little over $400. Since reading this post would like to move most/if not all of it somewhere. Where would you recommend playing, I prefer playing in lower limit (NL) tourneys, because I am in the process of reading on how to become a better Limit player. Thanks in advance for any replies!!

[lawfive]

I had an instance where the button didnt act in time, it came back to me in the BB, I checked, then everyone else who limped got the option to check or bet again, back to the guy who timed out, then he was last to act.

Now that is weird.

[hardinda]

That's crazy Lawfive. I've seen that happen as well.

I agree with this boycott.

[CalleN]

Check out 24hpoker.com, very good software and support and a lot of low limit NL cashgames and tournaments. The rake is lower as well. The currency is Euro, but that has saved me a lot of money since the dollar is falling like a stone... /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Elvis]

[ QUOTE ]
Where would you recommend playing, I prefer playing in lower limit (NL) tourneys

[/ QUOTE ]

If you like tourneys, you should go to either Partypoker or Pokerstars. They have much more tournament action than any other sites.

[lefty rosen]

They gave me this response yesterday" regarding the situation that you brought to our attending about
our software taking rake on uncalled bets, please be informed that we
are planning to change this.

Our software has been designed to do this from the beginning. However,
until recently, we have only offered limit games therefore this has
never really been such a big issue. No one ever brought it to our
attention before and so we never knew that this situation existed.

Travis, as I mentioned at the start of my email, we are going to change
our software so that it does not take a chop on uncalled bets. Please
note that for the time being there is nothing we can do to remedy this
situation. I therefore inform you that if you wish to continue playing
at our site, you do so knowing that we are taking rake on uncalled bets.


Please understand that it is our wish to get this situation corrected as
soon as possible but we will be unable to manually correct each pot
where a rake was taken for an uncalled bet.

If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please
feel free to contact us.

Kind Regards,
Laura
Member Support Representative
Pacific Poker....... So how months will it take and how many thousands will they get out of this. This is also affecting their limit games too. I just have a sick feeling on this one if Party ever gets this idea soft online games could be the thing from the past.......

[Dave H.]

Hey lefty,

Just read this entire thread. I don't want to hijack; I just want to add my 2 cents (at LEAST two cents!).

I'm going to post the two notes which I sent to Pacific on 1/5 and 1/6 and their responses back to me. These were in addition to 3 or 4 phone calls I made which got me absolutely nowhere. My problem (from a monetary standpoint) is insignificant in that it only involves a few dollars. From the standpoint of a SITE problem, however, it is VERY significant.

In a nutshell, I am still in nanolimits playing .05/.10 playing single table at Pacific about 3 hours per day. I had a balance of $70.10 when I began playing on 1/4/05. The balance went down to $67.41 and then several hands later I won twice in a row, taking my balance to $70.70. A couple of hands later I posted 5 cents from the big blind and called a raise with pocket sixes.

A disconnect occurred. I tried repeatedly to log back in with no luck. It was the site and NOT my connection because there was no problem logging into Paradise.

After 1/2 hour, I gave up. When I logged in the next day (1/5/05), my balance showed as $67.41 which was the LOW BALANCE from the prior day. It should have shown $70.70 (or $70.60 if they counted the disconnected hand as an all-in).

If you dare, read the following notes (sorry for the length):

My original note:

[ QUOTE ]
I just sent you the note below asking you to credit my account with $3.19. I just remembered that in the hand during which the disconnect occurred, I had a pair of sixes and I believe I had just called a 5 cent bet.

I hope that helps you with the resolution.

Below is the remainder of the explanation.

Hello,

I just contacted someone there by phone and was advised to send this email. Here is the problem:

I play on your site nearly every day and have been for the past two or 3 months. Today (1/5/04), I logged on and sat down at the Apple Bomb table and played 1 hand and lost 5 cents (.05/.10 table). I clicked on view lobby and the cashier total showed $67.36

That amount was my LOW AMOUNT from last night (1/4/05) minus the 5 cents I just lost on the Apple Bomb table. So when I started today, the balance shown was $67.41

After I was at that amount last night, I won two hands. I believe one was worth about $3 and the other was worth about 75 cents. So my balance last night was $70.70 and then I lost another 10 cents and then the server (at your end) disconnected in the middle of a hand at about 9:30 p.m. Arizona time. I was unable to reconnect. I kept getting the message to try later. So I quit until today when I signed in at about 5:30 p.m. and saw that my balance had been reduced by about $3.19

I am absolutely positive that your site has inadvertantly removed that amount from my balance. You need to credit my account with the $3.19 which your software removed by mistake. I do not know what the table name was that I was playing at, but I remember that there was a user whose 1st 4 letters began with walt and that there were about 9 players at the table when I won. One of the hands that I won with was a pair of kings and the other was I believe a flush. In one of those two winning hands, my pocket cards were KQs and they were both red.

Please review my hands from last night and credit my account. Again, the disconnect occurred at about 9:30 p.m. Arizona time on 1/4/05.

Thank you for your help and please send me an email when you have credited my account. This is the first time that I have had this type of problem at your site.

By the way, I started playing last night (1/4/05) at about 7 p.m. Arizona time with $70.10, went down to $67.41, and stopped and $70.60 (NOT the $67.41 that you showed).

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's their response:

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Dave,

Thank you for contacting us.

Firstly Dave, may I apologize for the inconvenience caused and thank you
for bringing the matter to our attention.

Unfortunately Dave, sudden disconnections can occur at any given time.
As our games are played over the Internet, we rely on problem-free
communication between you and our game servers, which is not always the
case.

As I am sure you can appreciate Dave, locating exactly where these
disconnections occur (with us, your ISP or yourself etc.) can be quite
difficult.

We do however investigate all instances which are brought to our
attention. With regards to the <font color="red"> tournament </font> which you registered for,
please send us the following information so that we can investigate this
for you.

1. Tournament ID:
2. Time and Date:
3. Type of Tournament which you playing in.
4. Buy-in and entry fee.

Once we have received the information listed above we will be more than
willing to investigate the matter fully and advise you as appropriate.

If you require further assistance in this or any other matter, please
feel free to contact us - we are here for you 24 hours a day, 7 days a
week.

Regards,
Stefano
Member Support Representative
Pacific Poker


[/ QUOTE ]

Here's my response back after an exasperating phone call:

[ QUOTE ]
Sir or Madam:

Where do you see any mention in my note of a tournament? I was NOT playing a tournament. I don't know how I could possibly explain the situation any better than I have in my note below. What I am trying to get you to understand is that my LOW balance, while playing the 5 cent/ 10 cent limit tables, was $67.41.

I played that evening between about 7:30 p.m and 9:30 p.m. Arizona time. I started the evening with 70.10 and got to a LOW balance of $67.41. Then I won a couple of hands which I described in my note below and which I do not intend to redescribe here. Those wins brought me to $70.70. I was still playing a hand where I had 6,6 in the pocket and I believe I called one bet and then got disconnected at about 9:30 p.m. Arizona time. My balance at that time should have been about $70.60 and that's what I should have seen when I logged in the following day (1/5/05). Instead, what I saw was $67.41, which was incorrect. Please adjust my balance upwards by $3.19
I THEN INCLUDED MY ORIGINAL NOTE HERE


[/ QUOTE ]

Their response back to me:

[ QUOTE ]
Dear Dave,

Thank you for contacting us.

Firstly I apologize for the our previous misunderstanding.

I have looked in to your account and have noticed the discrepancy to
which you refer.

I have forwarded the case to our Technical Department to investigate
further and, if appropriate, return the missing monies ($ 3.29) to your
bankroll.

Whilst they conduct this search <font color="red"> I would ask that you not login, as this
prevents their being able to access your account details.</font>

Due to the unique singularity of this situation the matter has my
fullest attention and I expect to have a resolution for you shortly.
Rest assured, this type of occurrence is EXTREMELY rare to say the least
and is NOT indicative of the usual high standards enjoyed by our
members.

I look forward to having this matter resolved as soon as possible.

In the meantime, if you require further assistance in this or any other
matter please feel free to contact us- we are here for you 24 hours a
day, 7 days a week.

Regards,
Marco
Member Support Representative
Pacific Poker


[/ QUOTE ]

I called back and asked how long it would take before I could log in again...they said I should receive an email within 48 hours but to call back if I didn't! I HAVE TO BE LOGGED OUT SO THAT THEY CAN INVESTIGATE MY HAND HISTORIES?? I didn't have table ids, but I gave them the approximate time, told them my winning hands prior to the disconnect, and even told them the hand I had when the disconnect occurred!!

<font color="red">Long live Pacific Poker!! </font>

[the_rookie]

It's funny that your question was with regards to a ring game, and yet they replied with an answer about a tournament. I sent them two letters asking if they were going to have 0.10-0.20 limit games and twice their answer was also with regards to tournaments.

[ QUOTE ]
I understand your frustration but please be assured that the lower money
sit and go tournaments will reappear.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
We have decided to temporarily remove these tournaments from our site so
that our research and development team can carry out improvements.


[/ QUOTE ]

Stupid or ignorant /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[addickt]

I stopped playing there when they emailed me and told me I was no longer eligible for the bonus point system because It wasnt designed for expert players like myself... Unreal. Run away the players that frequent your site everyday.. nice marketing.