Strange step 5 hand with Gigabet

[DrGonzo]

This hand was played a few days ago, in the beginning of a step 5 tournament. I know Giga is a very good player, but I can't see his thinking behind this play. Can you?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="#C00000">UTG+1 <font color="#A500AF">(Slon_T)</font> (t1210)</font>
Hero (t970)
MP1 (t900)
MP2 (t975)
MP3 (t970)
CO (t1000)
<font color="#C00000">Button <font color="#A500AF">(Gigabet)</font> (t870)</font>
SB (t1105)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t1000)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 <font color="#A500AF">(Slon_T)</font> raises to t125</font>, Hero folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button <font color="#A500AF">(Gigabet)</font> calls t125, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (t275) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Slon_T bets t1085 (All-In)</font>, Gigabet calls t745 (All-In).

Turn: (t2105) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t2105) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2105

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Slon_T has 2h 2s (full house, twos full of kings).
Gigabet has 5s 6c (two pair, kings and sixes).
Outcome: Slon_T wins t2105. </font>

It turned out that the guy he was playing against was a pretty reckless player. This was in the beginning of the tourney, but Giga could have had notes on him of course. I still don't see a reason to call the preflop raise with 56. Even if you hit the flop and the guy checks, you can't know if you have him beat.

I would really like to hear your ideas about this /images/graemlins/smile.gif. Thx!

[Daliman]

Giga commonly calls raises from players he feels he can control/outplay/read flop on. Exactly what he did here.

[SlowStroke]

A pretty standard call on the flop, I think.

If Slon_T had AA, QQ, JJ, TT he would be more careful and bet less.

If he had a King, he would make a smaller value bet, hoping for a call. Or most likely go for a check raise.

The all-in here is normally a weak player trying to pick up the pot.

I see this kind of play all the time.

Yes, sometime you will be fooled and be beaten (or outdrawn) but in the long run, calling is a winning play here.

[KingMedicine]

standard call?

i have more to learn than i thought. i understand that the gigster might be able to outplay people after the flop, but without some absolutely unmistakeningly accurate notes on this opponent, i fold this preflop. if i hit the wrong button and call preflop and have the cards come the way they did, i chuckle to myself a little at the opponent's bet and fold.

there is no doubt that giga is a monster and can outplay a lot of opponents, but, giga, c'mon man, whats the story here? i once saw giga post a hh where he called an all-in on the first hand of a 200/15 sng PREFLOP with a J4 or something just because he wanted to see what an opponent who moved all-in on the first hand had. was this a similar move?

[sloplynseto]

My guess ( I repeat a guess, I'm not a player of Gigabets level or success at all)is that Gigabet wants to gain some information about this player, he is in great position, and has a hand that could potentially bust a player with a monster hand. The all in bet is extremely weird as stated by Slowstroke.

Another Theory! It possible that at this level of play these players have hundreds to thousands of hands against each other? The gamemanship between these two players goes way beyond this one hand ,in one sit n go tournament? How much $$ was that information worth to Gigabet in the long run? Most people playing at this level aren't playing there for a little bit of entertainment!
I have read about many pro level players making a play that they know is a losing play at this point in the game ,but will make them money back later on in the game!
The game within the game! I highly doubt Gigabet is worried about this one play! In the war you will lose several battles,but the important thing is to win the war. There is a great article on pokerpages.com by Amy Calistri about winning the war not battles!

[schwza]

i would punch myself in the face before i cold-called 1/7 of my stack with 56o. one hell of a flop call though, huh?

[Mons]

I think alot of us on the flop would have the feeling that we were ahead, but to have the balls to not only call the preflop raise but to call the ALL-IN with 56o ... wow! Nice hand.

[The Yugoslavian]

This has got to be on the $. Gigabet would never make this play 'standard' unless he had a read or previous knowledge about his opponent. Against certain opponents (if you're reading and postflop skills are high caliber) you can call with any two (sort of what Giga did) and it is +EV.

Yugoslav

[jcm4ccc]

I'm going to post this hand in one month as if I had played it, and let's see how badly i get slammed.

[ZebraAss]

HaHa...nice call jcm.

[Gramps]

I'm going to go ahead and guess misclick on this one (PF). If this player raised to 125 at 10/15 with 22, and pushed on a K-K-6 flop, I'd be happy to call raises/go to war with some borderline holdings, but....65o, I don't see the logic (at least based on this one hand alone).

Now, if this player does this pretty much EVERY hand (overraises just about any two cards, then gets all-in on the flop regardless of whether the flop hit him or not), then I can see making this play. But that's a very, very extreme case.

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to post this hand in one month as if I had played it, and let's see how badly i get slammed.

[/ QUOTE ]

No kidding. There was a hand I was going to post but apparently my datamining missed it. It went something like this, though:

Gigabet raises in EP very early in a Step 5. Some guy just behind him immediately reraises pretty big. Folded around and Gigabet calls.

The flop comes 9 high rags. Gigabet checks. The other guy bets the standard 2/3 pot or so. Gigabet thinks *forever*, says 'well, it's only a thousand dollars', and CR's all in with A9o.

He's a great player and I've defended him in other threads, but some of those plays are either 'for information' or downright LAGgy.

[revots33]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to post this hand in one month as if I had played it, and let's see how badly i get slammed.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, you called it exactly.

They guy's obviously a great player but I can't see defending his play in this spot with 56o. My guess? The guy wins a ton of money, and so every now and then takes a flyer on a low percentage hand just for the hell of it, or to portray a LAG image that might help in future games.

Either that, or he was convinced that his opponent had something like AQ or AJ, which would put his pair of sixes in the lead after the flop. And let's not forget that in this case he was RIGHT - he WAS in the lead at the time he went all-in - so his read was, in fact, dead-on. Only the 2 on the river sunk him.

But still, to me it seems like a loose call that a lesser player would get slammed for on this board. Even if you agree with calling all-in after the flop, the pre-flop call was shaky.

[citanul]

I'm intrigued why this:

"My guess?The guy wins a ton of money, and so every now and then takes a flyer on a low percentage hand just for the hell of it, or to portray a LAG image that might help in future games."

comes before this:

"Either that, or he was convinced that his opponent had something like AQ or AJ, which would put his pair of sixes in the lead after the flop. But to me it seems like a loose call that a lesser player would get slammed for on this board."

come on, the guy's got copious notes on the other regulars in the high buyin games, and we know he's not an idiot. which then becomes more likely a $1065 image play, or a good call against a known idiot?

citanul

edit: i clearly have no real good explaination for preflop call.
i know that he has said he likes to make calls in position against players he feels he owns, but this may be pushing the envelope on that idea. now if it was soooooted...

[Ezcheeze]

Everyone makes mistakes once in a while, even some of the top players. Preflop call is clearly a mistake but calling on the flop is right against most players since it could only be a weak hand againts most players.

I think most likely he misclicked preflop and meant to fold. I guess theres some chance he really thinks hes that "good".

-Ezcheeze

[curtains]

Dont worry ,this hand is anything but standard, and anyone who says differently is full of %$#^%

[stocktrader23]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone makes mistakes once in a while, even some of the top players. Preflop call is clearly a mistake but calling on the flop is right against most players since it could only be a weak hand againts most players.

I think most likely he misclicked preflop and meant to fold. I guess theres some chance he really thinks hes that "good".

-Ezcheeze

[/ QUOTE ]

Who says the preflop call is a mistake, you? He also called all in as a favorite in the hand. Just because some weak players would toss this here doesn't mean everyone should.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm going to post this hand in one month as if I had played it, and let's see how badly i get slammed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Likely true, but same can be said for MANY hands top players play; in the hands of the uninitiated, it's dangerous.

Kinda like if someone said they're gonna put a new engine in their car by themselves. Good for them, but if I did it, it'd be a disaster.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
They guy's obviously a great player but I can't see defending his play in this spot with 56o. My guess? The guy wins a ton of money, and so every now and then takes a flyer on a low percentage hand just for the hell of it, or to portray a LAG image that might help in future games.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are far more right than you know here....

[BigHobo]

The cards he's holding don't make much of a difference if he's confident that he can get his opponent to fold before showdown. He may even be planning on showing his 56o as he collects his chips. What would be interesting is to see what his strategy would have been if he had not hit his flop and the opponent would have done something other than an all-in.

Of course once the flop came down KK6 and the all-in bet was made, calling, although risky, doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

[Ezcheeze]

Calling preflop shows a complete disregard for pot odds and implied odds. The only way it could be correct is if the PFR will somehow fold the flop a very high percentage of the time. This clearly is not happening against this opponent as can be seen from this particular hand so that couldn't have been giga's motivation.

I think its hilarious that some of you guys dream up these god like players who can play any hand and win without even being able to see their opponent LOL.

-Ezcheeze

[assron]

so he called a raise with a junk hand... not really a big deal imo. yes, it's not *technically* even close to "good poker", and could be for any of a number of reasons. That's online poker though, as much as you like to think you can figure the other players out, you dont really know what's going on at the other end. I know I make plays like this if I have to leave, or if I let one of my pals play for me for a few hands, or even sometimes when I'm not in the right mindset to play correctly. Could be anything.

[Ezcheeze]

How do you control and outplay a player when he just goes all in on the flop? You can read him somewhat but that's worth so little since you will almost never have a callable hand with 56o on the flop after he goes all in.

-Ezcheeze

[HoldingFolding]

In the long run, with players so knowledgeable of each other's play, surely this type of play is essential.

There's no way this was a misclick. If you think you are up against Ax (which is what I think he thought it was) then calling here can be EV+, simply because players cannot get away from decent preflop hands.

The massive all in overbet says (to me) "I have Ax and I missed the flop". He made a perfect appraisal of the situation and got sucked out on the river - they'd have heard me scream "MF" in Hawaii.

[Ezcheeze]

It doesn't become +EV just because you THINK he has Ax. He actually has to have Ax. But in REALITY he will have a whole range of hands. And if he bets large or pushes on most flops like he did this time then there isn't anything you can do except fold unless you make a pair or better and alot of those times you will be behind also. It doesn't even matter if you get the money in sometimes as a favorite since most of the time you will just fold the flop losing preflop money theres no way you can make it up the times you are ahead. O and say the board comes AQ6 and he bets all in, do you call then??

By the way his opponent had 22 not Ax.

Sorry to be going on a rant here guys but I really think preflop is a clear fold and I'd really like to hear some better reasoning from those who defend this play.

-Ezcheeze

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way his opponent had 22 not Ax.

[/ QUOTE ]

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[jackaaron]

I think Giga was right about his opponent. Giga made the right decision. In fact, Giga had it until that 2 showed up on the river, right? I'm sure Giga felt that in the long run, he wins against this opponent in these situations. His opponent had only two outs going into the river, and Giga had many outs because the only thing he needed was no 2's to come up.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero was not involved in the hand.

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Gigabet was not up against Hero. Hero folded preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
UTG folds, UTG+1 (Slon_T) raises to t125, Hero folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button (Gigabet) calls t125, SB folds, BB folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is up against Slon_T who has 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. (This is hard to see because it is in white.)
Slon_T hit his 3 outer on the river.

[Scuba Chuck]

In the 2+2 book, Psychology of poker, it states something that might explain Giga's play.

This is from memory. Essentially if your opponent is a known LAG, than a call even with just a small pair is considered a long term winning play. The player must show some obvious signs that this is not a strong hand.

I would think that an allin with this hand is a sign that he has a weak hand.

By no means do I have the experience necessary to critique this play. I just thought that the answer to this question could come from this book.

[niwotyalpi]

Giga is a great player, but some of you guys need to get off his nuts IMO.

[ReDeYES88]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

But Gigabet was not up against Hero. Hero folded preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
UTG folds, UTG+1 (Slon_T) raises to t125, Hero folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button (Gigabet) calls t125, SB folds, BB folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is up against Slon_T who has 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif. (This is hard to see because it is in white.)
Slon_T hit his 3 outer on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

. . .yep, my bad. . .too much sleep in my eyes and not enuff caffeine in my veins.

[imcastleman]

As Gig's brother, I'll say he is an absolute retard for making this call. With that said, in his defense, he does have position on the guy and I don't think I have noticed anybody say that Gig doesn't know when making the preflop call that the guy is going to move all in on any flop. If he did, there's no way in hell he'll make that call.

My guess is that it was a mis-click and he was doing too much multi-tasking at the time.

[jackaaron]

It's not being on his nuts...he wins this hand at the river more times than not.

[El Maximo]

Would be amusing to find out that a misclicked hand was discussed ad nauseam.

[imcastleman]

[ QUOTE ]
He is up against Slon_T who has 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif. (This is hard to see because it is in white.)
Slon_T hit his 3 outer on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, it was a one outer since hero also had a 2.

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, it was a one outer since hero also had a 2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only if you don't count the other two Kings out there...

[UMTerp]

How is a king an out?? An ace on the river splits the pot, but a king sure doesn't...

And FWIW, I'm baffled that so many of you are defending this call. A great player can turn marginal situations into profitable ones. Metagame considerations aside (how many of you will be thinking about this hand next time you're a t Gigabet's table??), this isn't even marginal. It's a bad call.

[wiggs73]

[ QUOTE ]
How is a king an out?? An ace on the river splits the pot, but a king sure doesn't...


[/ QUOTE ]

Kings full of sixes beats Kings full of twos.

[Insty]

[ QUOTE ]
Kings full of sixes beats Kings full of twos.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops my mistake. /images/graemlins/blush.gif
Fortunately this one didn't cost me any money! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[HoldingFolding]

Interesting that Imcastleman thought this was a misclick. Can you confirm it with your brother (I believe he's stopped posting)

My point was not that he had Ax, but that Gigabet put him on that hand given the massive overbet. He was only slightly wrong; 22 vs Ace high.

[citanul]

Am I missing something? When did gigabet put him on Ax?

citanul

[Danielih]

What? So all of a sudden the play becomes wrong just cause it was a misclick and becomes right if it wasn't??? Try evaluating the play based on things like pot odds etc., and not base it on things like whether your poker hero likes the play.

[Gigabet]

Sorry I took so long to reply to this, just enjoying the sun, while my friends and family shovel through 3 feet of snow.

There was no mis-click here, and I would make this call everytime. I had Slon on a dead read(hint: Slon is not the only name he goes by, so I have much more info than just the previous 3 tourneys we played, that day).

Someone mentioned that I made this call without regards to pot odds, I made this call based on implied pot odds, and I wanted Slons stack before someone else got it.

Slon does NOT make it past level 2 without 3k in chips. Just doesn't happen. I knew what he had before I made the call, and I knew that all my chips would be in on the flop if I caught a pair. For those who watch me play know that I think quite a bit when I make a decision for my stack. I think I spent all of 3 seconds calling his bet. I knew what he had, I knew he was going to make this bet, and I knew that around 33% of the time I would be calling his bet.

[The Yugoslavian]

Boo-yah! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[ QUOTE ]

This has got to be on the $. Gigabet would never make this play 'standard' unless he had a read or previous knowledge about his opponent. Against certain opponents (if you're reading and postflop skills are high caliber) you can call with any two (sort of what Giga did) and it is +EV.
Yugoslav


[/ QUOTE ]

Take that Gigabet's brother! /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

(If this were a Sklansky test I would be in the running for some dorko top ten list such as "top ten inferior players who nonetheless think they know enough to comment on superior players' hands.") /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Yugoslav

[imcastleman]

Ok, so he has a note on slon_T that says he will get all his chips in on the flop if it gets heads up?? And so Gig is willing to take a risk that if he hits a 5 or a 6, that he will have enough of an edge, that it's worth the chance to double up. Good for him. I think it's a bad call and not worth the risk. But, what do I know, I don't buy into these things all day.

[The Yugoslavian]

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

FWIW I'm *positive* you're a stronger poker player than I, /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[DrGonzo]

Thanks a big bunch for answering and clearing this up! It was interesting reading the different opinions everyone had about this.

I still have a hard time understanding when you say that you had a "dead read" on the opponent. Surely he would still make the same raise pre-flop if he held 55-AA? (maybe not with AA, KK) I guess that you are saying that he would raise with a VERY wide range of hands and that he will not hold a pair that many times. So, if a 5 or a 6 and no ace hit the flop, you would be ahead most of the time and would most likely get his entire stack. Still seems very risky, but I guess you know what you're doing /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

Don't you even consider this to be a marginal call?


[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I took so long to reply to this, just enjoying the sun, while my friends and family shovel through 3 feet of snow.

There was no mis-click here, and I would make this call everytime. I had Slon on a dead read(hint: Slon is not the only name he goes by, so I have much more info than just the previous 3 tourneys we played, that day).

Someone mentioned that I made this call without regards to pot odds, I made this call based on implied pot odds, and I wanted Slons stack before someone else got it.

Slon does NOT make it past level 2 without 3k in chips. Just doesn't happen. I knew what he had before I made the call, and I knew that all my chips would be in on the flop if I caught a pair. For those who watch me play know that I think quite a bit when I make a decision for my stack. I think I spent all of 3 seconds calling his bet. I knew what he had, I knew he was going to make this bet, and I knew that around 33% of the time I would be calling his bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

[HoldingFolding]

I took some abuse for my posts and feel (partially) vindicated! Thank you.


[ QUOTE ]
In the long run, with players so knowledgeable of each other's play, surely this type of play is essential.

There's no way this was a misclick. If you think you are up against Ax (which is what I think he thought it was) then calling here can be EV+, simply because players cannot get away from decent preflop hands.

The massive all in overbet says (to me) "I have Ax and I missed the flop". He made a perfect appraisal of the situation and got sucked out on the river - they'd have heard me scream "MF" in Hawaii.


[/ QUOTE ]