What Exactly is a "Bad Beat" (Philosophical Question)

[KenProspero]

After reading many so-called 'bad beat' stories in these forums, I've come to the conclusion that there doesn't seem to be a uniform agreement on what exactly a bad beat is. I've seen the following fact patterns (maybe a few more):

1. Any hand you lose on the river, even if bet correctly.

Example, (Limit Game)after the turn, Hero has two pair, but there are two /images/graemlins/club.gif on the board. Pot is about 8 big bets. Villian checks, Hero bets, Villian calls. A /images/graemlins/club.gif shows on the river,Villian bets, Hero calls, Villian wins the pot showing the flop.


2. Some Fish who should have folded gets the miracle card.

We can all think of hundreds of examples.

3. Hero's Aces get cracked (or similar hand).

4. Hero's monster hand gets devoured by a bigger monster.

Example: Heads up, NL. Hero has J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/club.gif

Flop shows J /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif T /images/graemlins/heart.gif

Everyone all in, Hero's full house is crushed by Villian's 4 Tens.

To my mind -- Situations 1 & 3 are not Bad Beats, it's just part of what happens all the time in Poker.

Situation 2, probably fits my definition. Bad Play was rewarded, while good play is punished. No justice at all here /images/graemlins/wink.gif. However, if the Fish didn't win these occasionally they'd stop playing, so, long term, even this isn't bad.

Situation 4. Although it may be a subset of situation 1, I consider this a Bad Beat, probably because it's so rare and it's sooooooooo costly.

What do others think?

[tek]

What you have to realize is what constitutes a "bad beat" against looooosers who use that phrase oddly enough is a great play when they win with the same type of hand and board...

[SheridanCat]

Situations:

1) You play well. Your opponent plays poorly. Your opponent wins against the odds. You still win in the long run, so that's not a bad beat.

2) You play poorly. Your opponent plays well. You lose because you played poorly. That's not a bad beat.

3) You play well. Your opponent plays well. You lose even though you played well. That's not a bad beat.

I don't see any bad beats.

Bad beats are a device. We think we took a bad beat when we feel frustrated. We think someone else took a bad beat when we're sympathic with their frustration.

There are no bad beats. There are opportunities to make money from our poor opponents and there are opportunities for us to assess and improve our own games.

Therefore, God must exist! How's that for a philosophical conclusion?

Regards,

T

[Siingo]

Well I think that this would be a bad bet.

You bet preflop with AK and get one caller
You have AK and the flop is 9 K A... The pot is $100. You go all in with $1500 and the other person call with 7 and 2. Turn and river is 2 and 2.... That I think is a bad bet!

After thet shall you get new money and not stop play with him untill he quit. Becaus you will probably win it back if he play like that all the time or you lose all your money becaus he is so XXXXXX lucky...

Have fun!

[bodie]

I agree with Sheridan's answer regarding the original question, "what exactly is a bad beat". It's best to look at these things a little philosophically, because much of this is the nature of poker and it's going to happen. This goes along with one of my own questions, which is, "What exactly is a Fish"?
It's amusing to me how nearly everyone who posts here discusses all of the stupid fish and how much money they make off of them. Then they go on to describe hands where they lost money....so, who's the fish?
I think a fish changes with the circumstance, depending on the opponents, focus or lack thereof, etc. In other words, nearly everyone could be thought of as a Fish at different times. I can usually think of a mistake I've made in a session, even when I'm really focusing....such as betting on 2nd nut straight, or 2nd nut full house in the hopes that someone doesn't have the bigger one, or betting on top two pair hoping it will be good and then seeing that 3rd flush card appear, at that moment, who knows, maybe someone thought I was a Fish, too.....

Bodie

[benfranklin]

A beat is when a player plays incorrectly and still manages to win over another hand that was played correctly and was the strong statistical favorite.

A bad beat is when it happens to you.

[ihardlyknowher]

Texas Hold'em as religion? Might as well; it is addictive enough.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Philosophically, I believe there is no such thing as a bad beat.

When someone makes a terrible call, that's a good thing - you welcome that. You also understand that x% of the time, that person will get lucky and win the hand. However, in the long run you want that person to make that call every time. When he draws out and beats you its a good thing, because he will then continue to make those same mistakes.

It's not a bad beat when it reinforces the bad plays from which you profit.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
Texas Hold'em as religion? Might as well; it is addictive enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Poker suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Poker is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people."

With apologies to Mr. Marx.

No, not that one, the communist one.

Regards,

T

[richrf]

I wnet to Websters to get the definitive answer to your question:

A "bad beat" is whenever a poker player loses, when the player should have won which is always.

[Joe Tall]

Learn to "Enjoy a Bad Beat." (http://www.riveredagain.com/articles.php#Tall_Enjoy_a_Bad_Beat)

Go Pats!
Joe Tall

[pzhon]

The following is part of an essay on bad beats I wrote for the Online Blackjack Guide titled, "Bad Beats are Good!"


What is a bad beat?

To me, a bead beat is when the bulk of the money goes in while you are way ahead, and then you lose. For example, if you move in preflop with AA, get called by KJ, and lose, that is a bad beat. If you slow-played the AA, and pushed on a KJ2 flop, that would not be a bad beat. If AQ and 66 are all-in preflop, and AQ wins, that should not count as a bad beat because 66 was only a mild favorite.

Bad beats can be frustrating. Many people get angry when their opponents deliver bad beats. They tilt, throwing away many chips by taking poor gambles. They insult the player who won. They clog strategy forums and bore friends with bad beat stories. These are unhealthy reactions. Bad beats are a crucial part of winning poker.


Some reasons bad beats are good

Bad beats are a sign that you are getting your money in with the best of it. This is a good thing. It means you can determine when you may be ahead, and you have the courage, aggression, or trickiness to get the chips in.

Bad beats mean the pot is larger when you win. Bad beats often come from bad calls. That means you gain from those calls on average. For every time someone calls without odds and wins, several times your opponent quietly folds a weak draw and you win a larger pot.

Bad beats indicate you are outplaying your opponents. If you see bad beat after bad beat, it indicates the game is good. Unless you are clearing a bonus, you need to outplay your opponents to win. If you remove the worst players, the number of bad beats will go down, but you will win far less.


Avoiding bad beats

There are a few reliable ways to avoid bad beats. They are all bad.

Quit poker? That would be a shame, as poker is fun and quite profitable. If you play chess, you can find opponents you can beat consistently. However, you won't be able to play for more than a token amount of money, whereas billions of dollars per year are wagered on poker.

Get your chips in with the worst of it? If you check or fold good hands and bet bad hands, you will be the one delivering bad beats. Of course, you will lose your shirt if you try this.

Tell your opponents what you have, so you are only called by better hands? "No chasers!" said a player at NL table as he overbet. He not only lost the chance to get money from players who were behind, he doubled up someone who was slow-playing a better hand. Again, this is usually an expensive mistake. Much of your profit comes from bad calls.

So, don't try to avoid bad beats. Don't discourage people from making any poor plays that led to the bad beat. Seek bad beats, and the money that comes with them. Learn to smile after taking a bad beat, or at least try not to type anything other than, "Nice hand."

[uuDevil]

This is excellent! After a bad couple of days, just what I needed.

Have you considered submitting this or other material to Mason for the online magazine?

[PE101]

This reminds me of a story (my kids would leave the room at this point)...

I was at a basketball game the other day. Every time the refs called a foul against us, this guy down the row from me would scream "let em play!". Not once did he say that when they called a foul on the other team. Hmmm...

A bad beat is when you lose after mentally pocketing the money. No one every considers it a "bad win" when are on ther receiving side of it.

[KenProspero]

Ok, I'll give you a 'bad win' story.

My first time playing for Money. $2-4 at Flamingo. I started playing at 9pm, and now it's about 2:30am. I'm feeling pretty good since I'd only lost a little. (I've sinced raised my goals considerably). However, I was dog tired, and should have quit at least an hour earlier.

I'm dealt 74 on the Big Blind. UTG calls, one other caller, I check.

Flop is 44T. I bet, UTG calls, limper drops.

Turn is Q. I bet, UTG Calls

River is K. I bet, UTG raises, I reraise, UTG reraises

I say What's going on, and realize that I've been two bleary eyed to see the straight draw that UTG must have been waiting for.

I call.

We turn over our cards and in fact, UTG has AJ. But I hear him saying Nice Hand, as the chips get pushed to me.

As well as being too tired to see the straight draw, I also 'missed' the fact that there were three spades on the board, which with my cards (which were, in fact, both spades) gave me the flush.

Now, I say anytime you're betting and are two blind (or tired) to see 1. a straight draw, 2. a flush draw and 3. the fact that you have actually hit the flush, it's an ugly ugly bad win.

[PE101]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, I say anytime you're betting and are two blind (or tired) to see 1. a straight draw, 2. a flush draw and 3. the fact that you have actually hit the flush, it's an ugly ugly bad win.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's also time to go to bed!

Good story. I had a similar one at a home game a few months ago, except that I mucked the hand after someone showed me their hand, then realized that I really had won. Sorry, I can't say that I had been playing for as many hours as you, I just blew it. That's what I call a "rookie mistake". It really hurts!

[RJT]

Classic answer Ben, you do honor to your namesake.