Questions on ALL streets, nothing goes quite as planned [Archive]

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cjx

01-05-2005, 11:53 AM

Ok, I lied, I feel alright about the preflop call. The table is a little loose and a little passive. I don't have stats for the players on hand (they're at home and I'm at work), but suffice it to say that I had 30-50 hands per player and they were probably 25-33% seen flop with about 1-1.5 post flop aggression factor nothing especially terrible, but certainly beatable.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero ???

I am unsure here. The pot is 7 SB when UTG bets, do I raise here to try and clean up my overcards? I mean this pretty much fits the definition of "the pot is getting big" right? Or do I call hoping for overcalls based on my flush draw, overcards, miracle straight draw and ... unmade hand?

I'll update the streets shortly after a few responses

cjx

Nick C

01-05-2005, 11:59 AM

I say go ahead and raise. You want to increase the chances of your hand holding up if you catch a pair. If people call two behind you, that's okay too.

Fat Nicky

01-05-2005, 12:01 PM

Raise.

IMRichB

01-05-2005, 12:01 PM

I would raise here and take the free card on the river if you don't improve. If reraised then call.

mistrpug

01-05-2005, 12:02 PM

I think the pot is still small enough that you want to go for overcalls behind you for your draw. If it gets raised behind you, go ahead and 3-bet for value.

If the pot was just a little bit bigger, a raise to clean up your overcards and maximize your chances of winning would be the right play.

By the way, I raise this preflop.

Lost Wages

01-05-2005, 12:06 PM

Really easy raise. You are in a win-win situation. If you get a bunch of folds that's good for you. If you get a bunch of calls that's good for you too.

Lost Wages

krishanleong

01-05-2005, 12:21 PM

I raise 10% and I think this would be a bad raise without a good read on UTG.

Krishan

Kirg

01-05-2005, 12:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the pot is still small enough that you want to go for overcalls behind you for your draw. If it gets raised behind you, go ahead and 3-bet for value.

If the pot was just a little bit bigger, a raise to clean up your overcards and maximize your chances of winning would be the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a contradiction, you have more chance of cleaning up your overcards by raising when the pot is small since when the pot is big they would have better odds to draw to their overcards.

Either way though this is a clear raise no matter the size of the pot because it might net you a free card.

cjx

01-05-2005, 12:31 PM

So, after reading and editing my post before posting it I kind of came to the same conclusion most of you did. Raise. If I cut the field in half I get about the same money built into the pot as I would have by calling and getting everyone to overcall, but I gotta believe my chances to win have improved a bunch and even if everyone folded but the original bettor it'd still have become a 10 sb pot going to the turn which is fairly substantial with my hopefully ~15 outer.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero ???

Well, I didn't raise preflop and now I hit top pair. Yeah, reads would be useful on these guys about now... It's 2 BB to me and the pot is 8 BB which is bordering on ginormous by my definition so I uh...

cjx

mistrpug

01-05-2005, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the pot is still small enough that you want to go for overcalls behind you for your draw. If it gets raised behind you, go ahead and 3-bet for value.

If the pot was just a little bit bigger, a raise to clean up your overcards and maximize your chances of winning would be the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a contradiction, you have more chance of cleaning up your overcards by raising when the pot is small since when the pot is big they would have better odds to draw to their overcards.

Either way though this is a clear raise no matter the size of the pot because it might net you a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I freely admit I me be wrong about calling the flop (LostWages explanation is good) but what I said is in no way a contradiction. When the pot is small, you don't mind as much if overcards tag along since if you let someone in cheap and they outdraw you, it's not a big deal since you only cost yourself the small pot. When the pot is large, you have to do whatever you can to knock out the overcards (such as maknig them face two bets to stay in.

And getting a free card is not the main reason you raise (if you do raise). In fact it both players behind you fold and UTG checks to you, I wouldn't take the free card.

Kirg

01-05-2005, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the pot is still small enough that you want to go for overcalls behind you for your draw. If it gets raised behind you, go ahead and 3-bet for value.

If the pot was just a little bit bigger, a raise to clean up your overcards and maximize your chances of winning would be the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a contradiction, you have more chance of cleaning up your overcards by raising when the pot is small since when the pot is big they would have better odds to draw to their overcards.

Either way though this is a clear raise no matter the size of the pot because it might net you a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

When the pot is small, you don't mind as much if overcards tag along since if you let someone in cheap and they outdraw you, it's not a big deal since you only cost yourself the small pot. When the pot is large, you have to do whatever you can to knock out the overcards (such as maknig them face two bets to stay in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still have to disagree, when the pot is large you simply can't get the overcards to fold in a big pot because they will have the odds to draw. However, the first part of your statement is true...partly, when you define overcards as AK for example it's not going to hurt a ton (altough I'd rather still raise in a small pot and have them fold so that if both a Q and A fall I can still win it) but the main target you're trying to fold is hands like KQ and KJ that WILL hurt you when they stay in.

[ QUOTE ]

And getting a free card is not the main reason you raise (if you do raise). In fact it both players behind you fold and UTG checks to you, I wouldn't take the free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't agree more with this, the main reason to raise here is for value, then to make overcards and shared cards fold and then maybe as a possibility depending on the turncard for a free card.

Kirg

01-05-2005, 12:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero ???

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'm just calling here, since it wasn't raised on the flop SB suddenly coming alive like this could very well be KJ or AJ, and UTG's raise screams to me of a set. I think you are behind to at least one of them and will more then likely need the flush.

If the river is a Diamond that's not the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I'm ramming and jamming, if it's the 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif I'm bet/calling or raising/calling. If it's a Q or a J it really depends on the action before me.

Nick C

01-05-2005, 01:24 PM

I think I'd just call here and hope to get to the river for just the two turn bets. UTG seems to like his hand a lot, so what I'm really hoping for now is a flush, though two pair or trips might be good enough if, for instance, UTG limped preflop with aces (and something like A9 isn't out of the question). I'm kind of worried he has a set, though, so what I really want is to hit my flush.

Redeye

01-05-2005, 01:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Really easy raise. You are in a win-win situation. If you get a bunch of folds that's good for you. If you get a bunch of calls that's good for you too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you here. This is a really easy raise. The worst thing that could happen is everyone but UTG folds and in that case your gaining position for the rest of the hand which is a bonus. If people cold call, great.

chson

01-05-2005, 01:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So, after reading and editing my post before posting it I kind of came to the same conclusion most of you did. Raise. If I cut the field in half I get about the same money built into the pot as I would have by calling and getting everyone to overcall, but I gotta believe my chances to win have improved a bunch and even if everyone folded but the original bettor it'd still have become a 10 sb pot going to the turn which is fairly substantial with my hopefully ~15 outer.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero ???

Well, I didn't raise preflop and now I hit top pair. Yeah, reads would be useful on these guys about now... It's 2 BB to me and the pot is 8 BB which is bordering on ginormous by my definition so I uh...

cjx

[/ QUOTE ]

Call with your flush draw and 2 pair draw (10.5 outs). Forget about the tripping up outs since it'll likely only make you a 2nd best hand.

BWebb

01-05-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero ???

Well, I didn't raise preflop and now I hit top pair. Yeah, reads would be useful on these guys about now... It's 2 BB to me and the pot is 8 BB which is bordering on ginormous by my definition so I uh...

cjx

[/ QUOTE ]

If I thought there was a very good chance a 3-bet would get me free showdown on the river, I would go for it. (By the way, I think a 3-bet on the turn would get a free showdown more often than not.)

Why?

-You could be ahead
-You have anywhere from 8-14 outs if you are behind
-You might get a better hand (such as KJ or AJ) to fold. This could also buy a couple of outs if you are against two pair and save you the pot if you are ahead.
-You get a free river showdown. This is the most important reason, IMO. Let's say you are going to showdown (if you call the turn, the pot is too big not to.) If you coldcall the raise and call a river bet, it costs you 3 BB. But a 3-bet on the turn will probably get you a free showdown from all hands except JJ and 99 about 90% of the time. Therefore, when you make your hand 18%-30% of the time, you get an additional 1 or 2 BB from the others. If you don't make your hand, you check behind.

Sorry if this seems rushed, I'm at work and don't have time to carefully write my response.

cjx

01-05-2005, 02:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If I thought there was a very good chance a 3-bet would get me free showdown on the river, I would go for it. (By the way, I think a 3-bet on the turn would get a free showdown more often than not.)

Why?

-You could be ahead
-You have anywhere from 8-14 outs if you are behind
-You might get a better hand (such as KJ or AJ) to fold. This could also buy a couple of outs if you are against two pair and save you the pot if you are ahead.
-You get a free river showdown. This is the most important reason, IMO. Let's say you are going to showdown (if you call the turn, the pot is too big not to.) If you coldcall the raise and call a river bet, it costs you 3 BB. But a 3-bet on the turn will probably get you a free showdown from all hands except JJ and 99 about 90% of the time. Therefore, when you make your hand 18%-30% of the time, you get an additional 1 or 2 BB from the others. If you don't make your hand, you check behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a good response and bears some thought though I was feeling more along the lines of the other posters. SB may have hit that J and improved to a better hand than mine and UTG may have had a better hand than Jacks on the flop so I'd be relying on the flush draw. But if I could get a free showdown I'd be super happy... I guess more experience and better reads on the players might be necessary.

cjx

cjx

01-05-2005, 02:34 PM

So I called and so did everyone else.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
SB bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (13 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, Button raises, SB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB
Results in white below: 
Hero has Qd Jd (one pair, jacks).
Button has 5h 7h (straight, nine high).
Outcome: Button wins 17 BB. 

I'll go ahead and finish the hand here... I got checked to by the previous two aggressors, I felt like I had a value bet heh. I don't know if that was a foolish notion or not. So, the two questions are, do you bet when checked to and then I don't think there is any question that if I check it's a check/call and if I bet and get raised as it happened I have to pay off.

Thanks for the continued responses.

cjx

Nick C

01-05-2005, 02:45 PM

Weird. I guess SB and UTG had Button on a double-gutter that hit? They both missed flush draws of their own?

Yeah, I guess maybe I'd bet top pair if checked to on the river. Or I might be so confused by this point that I'd check as well and hope it just got checked through.

If I did bet, I'd pay off Button after he raised and it was folded back to me. I certainly wouldn't expect to win, though.

BWebb

01-05-2005, 02:53 PM

Didn't even realize that the button was still in the hand. That would have made me more likely to 3-bet. However, not sure if it would have lost him in this case because of the double gutter.