QQ w/ a less than good board

[MarkL444]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB <font color="#A500AF">(44/8)</font> calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">44/8 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">44/8 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
44/8 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">44/8 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">44/8 bets</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

I dont have any other read on the Villian other than his preflop #s (44/8) over a small number of hands, like 25 or so.

Is this flop raise standard?
Do I have to bet that turn?

Thanks

[mikewvp]

I think you can let go on the turn check raise. I don't think giving him a free card is a good idea.

[housenuts]

i raise the flop like you did, but i would check the turn.

giving him a free card on the turn might not be a good idea, but you should fold to a check-raise so checking is better.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can let go on the turn check raise. I don't think giving him a free card is a good idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

I called because of my inside draw. You dont think thats enough?

[housenuts]

if he has a K you don't have enough outs to call with a gutshot draw. you need to check the turn. he's giving you a free card to hit your draw and you are insisting on paying for it.

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
i raise the flop like you did, but i would check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah? when he checked to me on the turn i started to think about the possibility that he was raising a four flush on the flop, but now that i think about it, im probably getting c/r'd way too much here to bet.

[housenuts]

i don't know how many people 3-bet a four-flush on the flop. is that a common occurence that i should watch out for?

the only four-flush hand i could see him 3-betting that flop with is A /images/graemlins/heart.gif9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif. obviously that couldn't be possible because the A /images/graemlins/heart.gif came on the river. of course you didn't know that, but i think now you can dismiss the fact he had a four-flush

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know how many people 3-bet a four-flush on the flop. is that a common occurence that i should watch out for?

[/ QUOTE ]

i would say yes. i seem to see it quite often. not sure how often it happens in general, maybe people just like to do it to me.

[housenuts]

actually i guess he could have any 2 of TJQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif. either way betting the turn is not good because he's still going to be correct in calling your bet if he does have a 4-flush, and you are going to have to fold if he raises (i think).

[MarkL444]

[ QUOTE ]
if he has a K you don't have enough outs to call with a gutshot draw. you need to check the turn. he's giving you a free card to hit your draw and you are insisting on paying for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

theres 4 jacks, well say 3.5 for the times that he has a Q and the times that the Jh comes and he has a flush.

theres 2 queens, well say 1.5 for times he has a J or times he hits a flush.

that seem reasonable? thats 5 outs.
im getting 8.5-1, break-even is 8.2-1
plus my implied odds

it seems close but i think calling is right

[housenuts]

ok well it's break even. sklansky advises not making break-even bets. i guess if you factor in the fold equity on the turn bet maybe it's a good one if you're going to have odds to call a raise. even so, i still like checking. anyone else?

[bdk3clash]

I check behind on the turn, but I might be biased because I know he ended up checkraising.

I think you should fold to the turn checkraise.

I also fold the river.

[MarkL444]

yeah i agree that checking is better, i think my main thing was underestimating how often im gonna get c'r/d here.

[housenuts]

as bdk3clash said, he may be biased about saying checking the turn is better because he knows the end result is you were check-raised. i whole heartedly agree with this statement.

i think this is the key play of the hand and the one you really wanted to focus the most discussion on. an idea for future posts would be to simply end your hand recap there thus not allowing for bias. for example:

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q, Q.
Hero raises, 6 folds, BB (44/8) calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K, 3, 9 (2 players)
44/8 bets, Hero raises, 44/8 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) T (2 players)
44/8 checks, Hero ?

This would spark the best debate as to what your action should be. then after all the poker wizards advocate a bet you could show how you got check-raised and say 'what now geniuses?'

[bdk3clash]

[ QUOTE ]
yeah i agree that checking is better, i think my main thing was underestimating how often im gonna get c'r/d here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your opponent was obviously reading this thread. (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1479079&amp;page=0&amp;view=colla psed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=14&amp;fpart=1)

[sfer]

My plan is to call/call/call, but I'd usually fold to that river card.

[spydog]

You are headsup on the flop, so why not just call? By raising, you might get him to fold a worse hand, which is bad. By calling, he may continue to bluff a worse hand. DO NOT discourage this. If he has a better hand, you will not get him to fold.

I think the best line is to call the flop. If he checks the turn, then bet. If he bets the turn, call that. You should also be prepared to bet the river if he checks to you. However, the Ah might be the only card in which I would fold this river, especially if the pot was 6.25BB instead of the larger 10.25BB pot that your Lagginess has inflated it to.

Remember, it's not always a bad thing to call.