Opponent his set of 5's how do I avoid losing all of my money

[theredpill]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.5 BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($13)
Hero ($25.18)
Button ($56.1)
SB ($40.4)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
Hero calls $0.50, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1.5</font>, SB calls $1.25, BB calls $1, Hero calls $1.

Flop: ($6) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $3</font>, Button calls $3, SB calls $3, BB folds.

Turn: ($15) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $8</font>, Button folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $25</font>, Hero calls $12.68 (All-In).

River: ($60.68) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $60.68

God this hurt. I was on the verge of making a small profit tonight. Then I lost my bank on one hand. Frustration I think set in. This guy next to me just kept hitting everything or so it seemed.

So I lost $25 tonight. You say Party Poker players aren't that good but jesus if I don't run into some that do seem good.

[theredpill]

Would you call a preflop raise with 5 5 ? I usually fold my small pocket pairs to preflop raises. Is it wrong on 6 max ?

[mythrilfox]

Bet more on flop, check behind on turn. River is your discretion, although he will probably check if he is not confident in his hand.

But since you bet the turn, you can safely fold to the raise.

[theredpill]

My bankroll is almost gone. If I lose the rest, I'm quitting poker. I've had it. There is no money in poker for me.

[mythrilfox]

55 has great set equity and implied odds. It doesn't matter if it's 6-max, if he thinks he can get your stack by hitting a set he's going to call. And that's just what happened...

[theredpill]

Well then I'm calling every [censored] raise with every [censored] pocket pair that comes across me.

[theredpill]

If I fold to the reraise, he loses money on that long term. He needs to get my entire stack for that play to profitable. Calling $2 preflop. He needs to make $16 since it is 8 to 1 to flop a set. He basically needs my entire stack.

[mythrilfox]

Let me say that the first two times I cashed into Party it was for 60 and 75. Both times I started off great and got up to 200, and then lost a little on bad beats and ended up tilting the rest off.

Now after the second time I sat down and decided that I was a pretty smart guy, probably smarter than your average PP player, and that there was -no- reason I should be failing at poker. I took a little break off, came back, and am doing great. I think one of the most essential things poker has taught me (and this is something I didn't know beforehand), was how to correct mistakes. This is a useful skill, not only in poker, but in life. We are often apt to make excuses for our mistakes, or blame it on other people's stupidity. When that happens, it is impossible for us to improve, and all our work ends up falling back on itself. But if you're able to remove yourself from these excuses and ignore your ego talking, you will notice a very rapid improvement.

Adjust your attitude and you will be fine. If you lose the rest, that doesn't necessarily mean you should be done with poker. There are 6-7 buyin downswings, and if your bankroll isn't large enough to support these, then you shouldn't be playing. I don't want to encourage you to keep coming back and losing it all again or anything, I just think that so many people go their entire lives without realizing their full potential because of these things. These small, insignificant things.

Keep posting here and getting feedback. Elaborate on your thoughts during the hand. The only way you can go is up.

[theredpill]

you're right . Ego is why I lost this hand. The mathematics don't care. It is what it is. Theoretically, I could have dwindled my stack to nothing playing with these 2 guys and made every correct decision but I would walk away shaking my head and wondering what happened. I called the reraise because I couldn't stand that he could have possibly out-flopped me. I didn't even think about the call. I usually think before I act. I think I was sitting at the table too long. I needed a break. I never take breaks but I need to schedule them in and make sure I take them. These 5 hour poker marathons can hurt my bankroll.

[mythrilfox]

You are still too utterly dense. The mathematics don't slip up, you slip up. You made the incorrect decision. ACCEPT IT. Stop making excuses and justifying your faults. I just went through your post history and literally 80% of your posts consist of complaining about things out of your control. No wonder you're a losing player. And as long as you treat everything like this, you will be not only a losing player in poker, but a losing player in the game of life.

The only glimpse of humility I caught was saying that you "didn't think about the call." Good. Start from here.



Oh, and if you need it to be proven to you... he has 7.5 to 1 to flop his set. He is getting virtually a guaranteed 4:1 on the preflop call alone to hit his set. And since BB tagged along he is getting well over 5:1. Implied odds dictate that he has to win like $3 on hitting his set to break even, and it will certainly end up being much more than that. On occassion I'll call off over 10BB to try and hit a set against a very loose, deep-stacked player.

But really, stop caring so much about his play. Even if it was incorrect (which it wasn't), yours was more incorrect. Board is Q596 and you think you're winning? You beat nothing. You beat QJ and QT and that's it. And that's astronomically unlikely given the action.

[sillyarms]

easy fold on the turn.


silly

[psuasskicker]

1) KQo is not a raising hand when UTG in NL, especially with reasonable blinds (i.e. not 1/2 in NL $300 max, rather 1/2 in NL $100 max).
2) A good rule of thumb to implement for yourself... Never ever let yourself be all in with TPTK or less, barring some weak flops when your TPTK is with AK. TPTK is a mediocre holding at best. It's one that can withstand action, but doesn't like to see all the chips moving into the middle.

SB has clearly represented a slowplay here. Unfortunately you have to call $13ish for a $50ish pot, so it's tough to get off your hand. But it's definitely possible to get away from this, and you've gotta do it.

I'd have bet more on that flop. $6 in the pot on the flop, I'd have put out around $8. Much less likely the SB slowplays you there if you bet big, and if he moves over top of you, it's likely for all your chips, at which point you can lay it down as necessary.

Would you call a preflop raise with 5 5 ? I usually fold my small pocket pairs to preflop raises. Is it wrong on 6 max ?

With big stacks behind you it's very weak to lay down pocket pairs to small raises even in six max. SB had an easy call there...fit or fold on that flop. He paid $1.25 and won almost a $60 pot there. Sets are the toughest hand in hold'em to read, so if you catch one, you're highly likely to get quite a bit of action on it, and highly likely to finish the hand best.

Calling $2 preflop. He needs to make $16 since it is 8 to 1 to flop a set. He basically needs my entire stack.

He called $1.25, which at 8 to 1 against (which he's actually better than, but let's call it that to make math easy) means he only needs $10, $2.75 of it is already in the pot, and if the BB calls there's another dollar, which means he only needs $6.25 more. You think he will have trouble getting $6.25 with three opponents and a $6 starting pot when he flops a set? If he CAN'T do that, he's a terrible player.

- Chris

[VanVeen]

Many will tell you that it's profitable to call raises to hit sets on PartyPoker in the six-max games. Speaking as someone who has done the math and has thousands and thousands of hands to draw from, I can't affirm this. If it's profitable at all it's only marginally so, and the reasons for this are manyfold. A few that jump out: a) the range of raising hands is wide enough that your opponents aren't holding hands they're willing to get all-in with on the flop (or turn.. or at all) the MAJORITY of the time you hit your set, in which case you stand to profit very little (they have nothing) or half (~23bb - they have a hand they like, but they won't give you all their men) of what you need to AVERAGE if you've called a 4xbb raise; b) even in multiway pots that promise a big score, your equity if you're all-in on the flop 3-ways is usually &lt;55-60%, so even in a 3 buy-in pot you're only standing to profit ~$40bb, which is still less than what you need (assuming you have a 50bb stack) to AVERAGE in winnings to justify calling a preflop raise of 4bbs. If you're willing to play back at your opponent with 88 on a Q74 flop, then you can probably increase the likelihood of playing the hand profitably for the standard 4xbb raise; if you're going to play passively post-flop when you miss your set, it's not even close - you're bleeding significant amounts of money each and every time you call the raise (probably 1.5-2bb!). Of course picking and choosing your spots would definitely swing the preflop call closer to the profitable side, but I'm fairly confident the putative profitability of calling these raises is illusory: you get the occasional big, exhilirating win, but by and large you're slowly donating money in raised pots. Things obviously change when the stacks get deeper.

An in-depth analysis of this may be forthcoming if anyone is up for it.

Don't raise KQo. Don't bet the turn so big, or at all if you think your opponent doesn't suck (but he likely does, so bet it). Fold to his raise.

[soah]

[ QUOTE ]
1) KQo is not a raising hand when UTG in NL, especially with reasonable blinds

[/ QUOTE ]

In a four-handed game with position over two of my three opponents I'm raising KQo 100% of the time.

[Yeti]

I just think there's a hell of a lot of bad advice in this thread. Maybe I'm wrong.

KQo, 4 handed. Raise to $3.

You hit TP. If the pot is now about $9, bet $7.
Get the rest in on the turn.

Getting away on the turn for $12 in a $60 pot shouldn't even be encountered. FWIW, I wouldn't fold it - this is Party $25NL people.

You were destined to go bust on this hand if you played it hard and fast.

I haven't played the game in a few months but I think we are all in agreement that the standard is abysmal. I'd be more than happy to lose my stack here with TPGK.

It is also obviously apparent that you are playing with by far too small a bankroll. Get yourself at least 15 buyins, study, come back, and don't play scared.

edit - I sorta agree with this :

'Board is Q596 and you think you're winning? You beat nothing. You beat QJ and QT and that's it. And that's astronomically unlikely given the action.'

Although, if you play it my way, you'll get people married to holdings like 88 and A9 which will make it easily a profitable play in the long run.

[Wayfare]

I do not see a good way to get away from this, other than the fact that you could have folded preflop, and could have folded to the large raise on the turn.

I think folding preflop might have been a good idea since you don't have position and don't have a strong hand. However the call on the end is fine considering how much bluffing goes on.

This particular situation is unfortunate; when you hit a pair and the other guy hits a set. Try not to focus on the times you get stacked and can do nothing about it, because they will happen. Instead try to focus on the times that you play it wrong and that prevents you from stacking your opponent. Also don't go too far with stubborn opponents (especially those that call on drawless boards) when you don't have something overwhelmingly powerful. Checking behind on the turn or river with one pair middle kicker is almost always the best play.

Finally, stop thinking about the particular session and its profits and losses. Even the best low stakes no limit players lose 40-45% of their sessions; that's the nature of gambling. If you haven't enjoyed success immediately that is to be expected; I lost consistently for at least a year and a half at my college game before ever picking up party poker and bending it over.

As long as you continue to learn and be patient the money will come. Learning seems to be taking place, patience is not.

[mythrilfox]

No, I definitely think the turn is a clear fold. And I'm not being results oriented, I would lay this down 100% of the time, for reasons stated above. (Unless opponent was markedly terrible). You just don't beat anything, and if Villain is at all even remotely reasonable, it is a clear fold.

But I definitely agree that it was misplayed on earlier streets as well and that he could have saved even more money.

[Wayfare]

I check behind on the turn to get away from this hand. However the way it was played out on the turn he is dead to rights.

I really hate betting half the pot on the flop too. Come strong early or go home.

[Yeti]

mythril -

On the turn it seems likely he is behind. However, he is now in a position where he has to call.

I'm keen for him to play more aggressively on earlier streets. With top pair 4 handed and these tiny stacks (which play more like 25BB IMO), I want all my money in.

[PITTM]

first problem: your entire bankroll is 25 dollars. get a bigger bankroll or move to the prima 2 dollar nl games...

rj

[ohkanada]

Why are you playing a 6-max game? I am guessing the full ring games have a much lower variance than a short-handed game.

But party games are high variance anyways because of the short stacks (50xBB) and the poor players. So a good player could be playing 4 $25 tables at once and easily be up $100 on 2, even on 1 and down $75 on the other.

And if you are playing the $25 game and that money means a lot to you, then you shouldn't be playing that high of a game. Move to a different site with smaller games or the games with the .10-.25 blinkds.

Ken

[theredpill]

[ QUOTE ]
You are still too utterly dense. The mathematics don't slip up, you slip up. You made the incorrect decision. ACCEPT IT. Stop making excuses and justifying your faults. I just went through your post history and literally 80% of your posts consist of complaining about things out of your control. No wonder you're a losing player. And as long as you treat everything like this, you will be not only a losing player in poker, but a losing player in the game of life.


[/ QUOTE ]

WTF is this. I get home from work to find some punk dissing me in my own thread. I'm a nice person but I want to know why the hell you wrote this crap. If you read my post, I didn't say the mathematics slipped up. I said the opposite. Did I not say in my first line that I agreed with your post ? Who is dense here? WHy the hell did you have to turn this thread into a flame war ? Just don't respond to my posts anymore because I want negativity out of this discussion. If you read my post, I don't understand what set you off. I was agreeing with you.

I was simply giving reasons that I was inclined to make a dumb decision. I have folded to reraises when people had sets. I merely telling you why in this situation, I didn't do it.

[ohkanada]

4 handed, I would raise KQ. Wouldn't even dream of folding it. As you played it PF, calling the raise is just fine.

On the flop I would bet more (atleast 75% of the pot).

On the turn I have no particular issue the way you played it. I probably bet more than 8. I can't say about the 6-max games but on regular party tables I can easily see you winning the pot with KQ. Add $30 or $40 to each of your stacks then things change a lot and folding is much clearer.

Ken

[theredpill]

Well, sorry I had to get medieval on someone. Thanks for the replies everyone. There are a lot of conflicting views on this hand. That's poker I guess. I do agree with the many people that said I should have bet a little over the pot. I was doing that early in the night and taking many pots down very easily. Once he called, I think I should have slowed down on the turn and checked it. Or perhaps folded to his reraise on the flop. I understand how I could have saved a lot of money on this hand by actually betting hard on the flop. THanks. I never have thought of that. This is a great forum. I appreciate everyone's contribution.

BTW, anyone have advice on how to figure out a bluff re-raise on the flop from a "I have a set" re-raise on the flop ? I'd be very much interested if anyone has tells. I do notice some players vary the amount of time they take drastically with different kinds of hands. I try to take the same amount or nearly the same each time. Some players will bet very quickly and this tells me he has a very good hand. I see it occasionally. Perhaps the bluff re-raise happens so infrequently that it isn't even worth studying.

[Wayfare]

There are very few decisions that need to be made regarding reraises at this level of poker.

A reraise is when someone bets, you raise, and then he raises again. This doesn't happen very much at all in my experience.

Also do you see why your math at the beginning regarding sets is very flawed?

[psuasskicker]

In a four-handed game with position over two of my three opponents I'm raising KQo 100% of the time.

I missed that it was four handed...thought it was six. Yes, in that case I'd raise with it.

Getting away on the turn for $12 in a $60 pot shouldn't even be encountered. FWIW, I wouldn't fold it - this is Party $25NL people.

Sorry, this is bad. There's no such thing as a TPGK that cannot be laid down when it amounts to half an opening buy-in. And just generalizing by saying "it's Party $25 NL" leaves yourself WAY too open to people who actually play somewhat competently, like HERO's opponent did. Keep in mind, HERO lost all his chips on this hand, it was a mediocre hand against a represented slowplay, and it would NOT have been a bad laydown.

I haven't played the game in a few months but I think we are all in agreement that the standard is abysmal. I'd be more than happy to lose my stack here with TPGK.

Standard abysmal or not, going bust with TPGK against someone representing a slowplay is terrible advice. It just is. I don't care what the "standard" of play is...it's about who you're facing at the time. I can rattle off a thousand different games I've played in where the table was overall a group of terrible players. Does that mean that everyone on those tables played terribly? I'd be broke right now if I thought that way.

Although, if you play it my way, you'll get people married to holdings like 88 and A9 which will make it easily a profitable play in the long run.

If he plays it your way, he'll get broke with TPGK a lot of the time, which isn't something you ever want to do, I don't care HOW low the stakes. TPGK isn't an all in hand, the ONLY exception being that this is four-handed play. Except all four saw the flop with his raise, which throws that out the window cause four seeing the flop in four handed is still the same as four seeing it in a full table.

More aggressive on the flop? Yes. Allow yourself to get broke with it? No.


There is one exception that allows him to go broke with it...if he's betting the entire way. I don't like having all my money in with TPGK at any point in time. But four handed when I've flopped it an no one is showing strength, it's allowable to be betting the whole way with it. If he bets pot size at that flop and is called, his only bet on the turn can be an all in with his stack size. And he can't give a free card to someone trying to chase him down with God knows what.

But if you're not betting all in and have half a buy-in left, and someone puts you all in on the turn after cold calling on the flop, there's no way you can allow yourself to call that unless you have a very specific read on the player that says otherwise.

- Chris

[Yeti]

There is one exception that allows him to go broke with it...if he's betting the entire way. I don't like having all my money in with TPGK at any point in time. But four handed when I've flopped it an no one is showing strength, it's allowable to be betting the whole way with it. If he bets pot size at that flop and is called, his only bet on the turn can be an all in with his stack size. And he can't give a free card to someone trying to chase him down with God knows what.

Um, wasn't that the whole gist of my post?