California school system in trouble

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- California students rank among the lowest in the nation for academic achievement -- across all racial groups -- despite the state's many reform efforts, according to a study released Monday.

The Rand Corp. study also finds California's per-pupil spending is among the lowest, and that its student-to-teacher ratio is among the highest. The state also lags in building schools.

The study was sponsored by the Hewlett Foundation, which funds social research.

Thirty years ago, residents invested heavily in the public education system, resulting in schools that were consistently ranked among the nation's best, lead researcher Steve Carroll said. A voter-approved property tax limit and a change in how the state pays for schools, both passed in the 1970s, cut public education spending.




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<font color="white">. </font> CNN Report (http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/04/california.schools.ap/index.html)
<font color="white"> . </font>

[Broken Glass Can]

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The Rand Corp. study also finds California's per-pupil spending is among the lowest, and that its student-to-teacher ratio is among the highest. The state also lags in building schools.


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Anyone who thinks money is more than a tiny part of the problem doesn't understand the real problems in the education system (hint: the liberals run most schools and apply their "educational theories").

Washington DC spends more per capita on education than any state.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks money is more than a tiny part of the problem doesn't understand the real problems in the education system (hint: the liberals run most schools and apply their "educational theories").


[/ QUOTE ]

How does that explain the California problem over other liberal states. For example, Minnesota is one of the most liberal states in the country and also traditionally ranks at the very top of public schools.

[ddollevoet]

One word: PRIVATIZATION

If schools were owned and run like private businesses, the quality of all schools would improve.

[Broken Glass Can]

[ QUOTE ]
How does that explain the California problem over other liberal states. For example, Minnesota is one of the most liberal states in the country and also traditionally ranks at the very top of public schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is California is a blue state with huge school districts (which means weak parental influence).

Minnesota is a purple state with many more red county residents relative to the state's population. Purple states may be liberal on other issues while moderate on education (after all, parents pay close attention to education issues and have more influence in low population school districts).

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
Purple states may be liberal on other issues while moderate on education

[/ QUOTE ]

Purple states may be moderate on education, but Minnesota certainly isn't. If you think Minnesota has anything but a "blue" educational tradition then you're talking out of your ass.

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The difference is California is a blue state with huge school districts (which means weak parental influence).

[/ QUOTE ]

What does the size of the school district have to do with your original point which was that it was liberal education theories that was the problem with California schools.

[Broken Glass Can]

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Purple states may be liberal on other issues while moderate on education

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Purple states may be moderate on education, but Minnesota certainly isn't. If you think Minnesota has anything but a "blue" educational tradition then you're talking out of your ass.

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Minnesota has a lot of school districts. The big cities may be liberal, but are you saying the dozens of rural counties are also liberal? (liberal here refers to policy implementation, not the general political beliefs of the people involved)

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The difference is California is a blue state with huge school districts (which means weak parental influence).

[/ QUOTE ]

What does the size of the school district have to do with your original point which was that it was liberal education theories that was the problem with California schools.

[/ QUOTE ]

School board elections in big cities (if elected at all) are quite different than in smaller communities where the people can actually get to know their board members personally. In smaller communities, parents won't let their boards implement silly social experimentation ideas so easily (they'll throw them out of office). In large cities social experimenters can thrive as long as the Political Party system puts them on the ballot (parents have a much weaker influence on them).

[elwoodblues]

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The big cities may be liberal, but are you saying the dozens of rural counties are also liberal?

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Their education systems/policies largely are. Even if you discounted rural areas and focused solely on the larger populated areas of Minnesota, I would suspect that even these "liberal" areas would rank Minnesota among the top in the country.


[ QUOTE ]
School board elections in big cities (if elected at all) are quite different than in smaller communities where the people can actually get to know their board members personally. In smaller communities, parents won't let their boards implement silly social experimentation ideas so easily (they'll throw them out of office). In large cities social experimenters can thrive as long as the Political Party system puts them on the ballot (parents have a much weaker influence on them).

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess your original idea that it was "Liberal education policies" isn't right. It sounds like you now believe it is larger school districts in California (is this even true?)combined with liberal education policies that somehow makes for California's poor performance.

To see if this has any merit, we would have to look at the following four types of schools districts and see which performed the best:

Small Districts, Liberal Policies
Small Districts, Conservative Policies
Large Districts, Liberal Policies
Large Districts, Conservative Policies

I doubt that we would find that your hypothesis holds any water, though it might.

[Broken Glass Can]

The liberal social experimentation policies harm the school system. My point was that the further the politicians are from the people, the less accountable they are. If you are on a small town school board, your neighbors will berate you for stupid policy implementation and then vote you out of office. In a big city, they won't even know who you are.

[elwoodblues]

A)
[ QUOTE ]
The liberal social experimentation policies harm the school system.

[/ QUOTE ]

B) [ QUOTE ]
My point was that the further the politicians are from the people, the less accountable they are. If you are on a small town school board, your neighbors will berate you for stupid policy implementation and then vote you out of office. In a big city, they won't even know who you are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you jump from A to B. Nor do I really see how A&amp;B are connected.

If A&amp;B were connected, one would suspect that small conservative school district tend to do the best. I highly doubt that is the case.

Further, we would suspect that Large Conservative districts would fare better than Large Liberal districts and that Small Conservative Districts would fare better than Small Liberal Districts.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

You retard... he's saying the liberal schooling policies are the problem and the big cities are where you can get away with them to a greater extent. It's the large districts that allow the liberal schooling policies to run amok. The parents have more control in the smaller districts and don't let them go as liberal.

You're arguing just to be argumentative and to try to score a win. Give it up.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
You're arguing just to be argumentative and to try to score a win

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I'm arguing because I think he's wrong and he hasn't offered and evidence to support his position. It's okay to do that, but his contentions don't ring true for me and I'm asking for a little evidence to back it up.

I think he's wrong because his argument assumes that smaller conservative districts would do better than their larger and/or liberal counterparts. I haven't seen any evidence to support that. I gave the example of Minnesota which is a liberal state with liberal schools. It is consistently ranked very highly and has some large school districts (not the largest in the country by any stretch) in the twin cities metropolitan area.

[jcx]

The differences between CA and MN should be obvious. MN is one of the most homogenous states in the union, CA is saddled with educating millions of illegal immigrants who typically speak little to no English. This was not the case thirty years ago. More money will not solve this problem. Deporting a few million illegals might help.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
The differences between CA and MN should be obvious. MN is one of the most homogenous states in the union, CA is saddled with educating millions of illegal immigrants who typically speak little to no English. This was not the case thirty years ago. More money will not solve this problem. Deporting a few million illegals might help.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the answer that should've been given when CA vs. MN was brought up.

[elwoodblues]

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MN is one of the most homogenous states in the union, CA is saddled with educating millions of illegal immigrants who typically speak little to no English.

[/ QUOTE ]

Homogeneity is certainly a factor. It is obviously easier to teach people who share a common language and culture.

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More money will not solve this problem. Deporting a few million illegals might help.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the children of those illegals who are US citizens. How are you going to educate them? Money won't solve the problem, but it can help. More money to fund ESL programs, for example would have a positive impact. More money to teach in native tongues might help (whether you agree with that idea or not.) Money to hire bi/multi-lingual teachers would help. Money isn't the only solution, but (if spent correctly) it can certainly help.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the answer that should've been given when CA vs. MN was brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what does that have to do with the Liberal education system that Broken Glass brought up?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
This is the answer that should've been given when CA vs. MN was brought up.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what does that have to do with the Liberal education system that Broken Glass brought up?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not defending his position. I do think it has some merit, though not necessarily as much as he seems to think it does.

[hetron]

[ QUOTE ]
The differences between CA and MN should be obvious. MN is one of the most homogenous states in the union, CA is saddled with educating millions of illegal immigrants who typically speak little to no English. This was not the case thirty years ago. More money will not solve this problem. Deporting a few million illegals might help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we deport the few million filthy "legals" who employed them illegally as well?

[jcx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The differences between CA and MN should be obvious. MN is one of the most homogenous states in the union, CA is saddled with educating millions of illegal immigrants who typically speak little to no English. This was not the case thirty years ago. More money will not solve this problem. Deporting a few million illegals might help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can we deport the few million filthy "legals" who employed them illegally as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

They can pay hefty fines &amp; do possible jail time, I've no problem with that. This thread was about education though, so I'll leave it there.

[jcx]

[ QUOTE ]
How about the children of those illegals who are US citizens. How are you going to educate them? Money won't solve the problem, but it can help. More money to fund ESL programs, for example would have a positive impact. More money to teach in native tongues might help (whether you agree with that idea or not.) Money to hire bi/multi-lingual teachers would help. Money isn't the only solution, but (if spent correctly) it can certainly help.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem in CA w/ ESL is that it's not just Spanish. Both of my parents teach in So. Cal. In their district there are myriad Latin Americans, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Koreans, Filipinos, Persians, Chinese, Indians, Thais, Arabs &amp; even a few whites. Should spanish speakers get ESL priority over vietnamese speakers? Where do you spend the money?

My personal opinion is english immersion is the way to go. Teaching these students in their native tongue is not preparing them for the realities of life here. With spanish speakers especially, the coddling they receive in our society actually helps to keep them in the underclass. Spanish speakers can vote in their own language, use ATM's in their own language, have their children educated in their own language. Police in their neighborhoods speak spanish. Many other foreign born non-english speakers do not have this luxury and are therefore forced to learn english. This pays huge dividends for them in later life as they are able to compete for higher paying jobs, while those who never learned english are sentenced to a life of cutting lawns or cleaning toilets.

[elwoodblues]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem in CA w/ ESL is that it's not just Spanish... Should spanish speakers get ESL priority over vietnamese speakers? Where do you spend the money?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, it's a difficult problem and one that is only going to grow.

[ QUOTE ]
My personal opinion is english immersion is the way to go. Teaching these students in their native tongue is not preparing them for the realities of life here.

[/ QUOTE ]

A spanish speaker in Southern California is probably just as prepared for the realities of life in So. CA as an english speaker.

------

My own $.02 on the subject: I can give a pass to first generation immigrants. The non-english speaking european settlers who moved here didn't suddenly learn english over night either. On both sides of my family and my wife's family, my understanding is that the first generation either spoke no english or VERY broken english.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How about the children of those illegals who are US citizens. How are you going to educate them? Money won't solve the problem, but it can help. More money to fund ESL programs, for example would have a positive impact. More money to teach in native tongues might help (whether you agree with that idea or not.) Money to hire bi/multi-lingual teachers would help. Money isn't the only solution, but (if spent correctly) it can certainly help.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem in CA w/ ESL is that it's not just Spanish. Both of my parents teach in So. Cal. In their district there are myriad Latin Americans, Cambodians, Vietnamese, Koreans, Filipinos, Persians, Chinese, Indians, Thais, Arabs &amp; even a few whites. Should spanish speakers get ESL priority over vietnamese speakers? Where do you spend the money?

My personal opinion is english immersion is the way to go. Teaching these students in their native tongue is not preparing them for the realities of life here. With spanish speakers especially, the coddling they receive in our society actually helps to keep them in the underclass. Spanish speakers can vote in their own language, use ATM's in their own language, have their children educated in their own language. Police in their neighborhoods speak spanish. Many other foreign born non-english speakers do not have this luxury and are therefore forced to learn english. This pays huge dividends for them in later life as they are able to compete for higher paying jobs, while those who never learned english are sentenced to a life of cutting lawns or cleaning toilets.

[/ QUOTE ]
I keep wondering what it will take for people to figure this out. Our country is becoming (or already has become) one of entitlement and this is just another biproduct of it. People need to learn a bit of responsibility and not be afraid to hurt someone's feelings a little bit in order to do things right. English immersion is the best thing for these people. It might take a little tough love, but it's about time to cut the crap.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
SACRAMENTO, California (AP) -- California students rank among the lowest in the nation for academic achievement -- across all racial groups -- despite the state's many reform efforts, according to a study released Monday.

The Rand Corp. study also finds California's per-pupil spending is among the lowest, and that its student-to-teacher ratio is among the highest. The state also lags in building schools.

The study was sponsored by the Hewlett Foundation, which funds social research.

Thirty years ago, residents invested heavily in the public education system, resulting in schools that were consistently ranked among the nation's best, lead researcher Steve Carroll said. A voter-approved property tax limit and a change in how the state pays for schools, both passed in the 1970s, cut public education spending.



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Hmmmmm no mention of the pernicious stranglehold the teachers' union has on our school system eh?

No mention of any numbers that actually show the correlation between spending and quality education?

No mention of school learning environments that often make it impossible for students to learn?

Wait, there's this: "A voter-approved property tax limit and a change in how the state pays for schools, both passed in the 1970s, cut public education spending and led to a drop in quality, Carroll said."

Ah, Caroll said so.

natedogg
PS: Blaming "liberal" education is stupid. Blaming anyone who take a pet theory with no data to back it up and turns it into education dogma is a sound criticism however. This happens all too often to the detriment of students. Unfortunately it happens to often be lefty theorists who have done this but I think that's correlation not causation.

Conservatives, by definition don't want change. So by definition anyone who tries something new, whether it's solid OR crackpot, will most likely be a liberal

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyone who thinks money is more than a tiny part of the problem doesn't understand the real problems in the education system (hint: the liberals run most schools and apply their "educational theories").

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny, I was in all those liberal classes and am about to graduate from college. All the kids in the underfunded ESL programs wash my car now... Think ofr a minute before spouting off your idiot rhetoric

[Cyrus]

Well, yours amounts to the first relevant response to the issues that the article poses: Is there a correlation between spending &amp; building an education system and that system's performance?

[ QUOTE ]
No mention of the pernicious stranglehold the teachers' union has on our school system

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We need to study state-by-state data that shows levels of unionisation of teachers and compare them with education system performance across states.

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No mention of any numbers that actually show the correlation between spending and quality education?

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The article purports to show precisely that correlation, at least as far as California is concerned. And it is an intuitively sound argument, as well: In every endeavour of our lives, caring for something (and nurturing it, investing on it) yields better results than the other way around. A better question perhaps would be, how to improve efficiency in that "investing"? In other words, how to get a bigger bang for every buck.

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No mention of school learning environments that often make it impossible for students to learn

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It is reported in the article that there is a deterioration of school environment due to lack of funds. I believe that the physical environment of a school (or college, etc) plays a tremendous role in shaping students' attitudes. Anyone remotely familiar with the discipline of signs would tell you that a human-scale, pleasant, not-mass-produced, obviously carefully planned &amp; built school environment signifies that the school cares and that the students will be treated (an implicit promise) with dignity and respect. This boost students' morale and improves everyone's attitudes, including the teachers'. The rest is easy; the IQ distribution is Gaussian anyway.

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Conservatives, by definition don't want change. So by definition anyone who tries something new, whether it's solid OR crackpot, will most likely be a liberal

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw your other post about Arnold Schwarzenneger's Union of the State speech. The GOP is in for a bumpy ride with Arnold! He is not ideologically imprisoned and is much more of a maverick than they realize. Although naive and sometimes as conniving as any other politician, he is the freshest thing to happen in American politics since Ross Perot.

And you are right about the conservatives. The neo-con blueprint for education in America is a recipe for unmitigated disaster.

[tolbiny]

"Anyone who thinks money is more than a tiny part of the problem doesn't understand the real problems in the education system"

Your getting it backwards- the reason there are som many "experimental liberal" ides in these school systems, is because they generally lost large portions of their funding. These liberal attemps are a byproduct of failing schools with no money, they are just shots are trying to make do with less.
I have worked in a couple of schools, and seen dozens of others. The school with the best results just happened to have a nuclear power plant in its district funneling them huge amounts of property tax. strangly enough, the rest of the area was quite poor, and yet they were one of the most highly regarded elementary schools in the state, and their kids did well above average in all tests from there on out. Ohh, and it was run with a very liberal plan, mixed classes, student mentoring, volunteers from the community.
Money has more to do with it than any other single factor.

[tolbiny]

really? for whom, and how, and why?

[tolbiny]

"Police in their neighborhoods speak spanish."

I fully agree that police working in a community should have at the very least a grasp on any other languages used prominantly.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
One word: PRIVATIZATION

If schools were owned and run like private businesses, the quality of all schools would improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

Etymological background:

The word idiot comes from the ancient Greek idiotis, meaning literally "private citizen", a concept that was an oxymoron in Athenian democracy, a regime that operated on the premise that citizens were involved in the running of things (and did not stay "private"). An Athenian citizen who placed his own personal good fortune above the good of the democratic society at large was not a good citizen of Athens.

The word idiotis was used by the Athenians both straightforwardly and to signify the folly of pursuing mostly one's "idiotic" (i.e. private) interests in life. Idiotis was practically the opposite of politis (citizen).

Were the ancient Greeks idiots or wise?

[natedogg]

"The neo-con blueprint for education in America is a recipe for unmitigated disaster. "

I didn't even know the neo-cons have a plan for education. I assume it's probably long on high ideals and short on pragmatics. Do you have details?

natedogg

[natedogg]

The problem with california schools is certainly multi-faceted. Lack of funds MAY be a problem but I have doubts. Even if lack of funds is a problem, the state is maxed and unless those fools in Sac start to cut spending massively, it doesn't matter if schools are underfunded or not, we can't spend more.

One problem with comparing unionized public schools is that the nature of the unions may be quite different, so the comparison may not mean much. The CTA is full of crap and I doubt anyone really contests that. Their primary interest is their own collective ass, the children be damned.

The irony is that it's true that teachers aren't very well compensated so how much is the union really helping them? But the job security can't be beat. Teachers would almost certainly do better if districts had the option to go non-union. Or I should say, GOOD teachers would certainly do better.

It doesn't mean teachers wouldn't have the right to go unionize and only work for districts that hired union, but to hold the state hostage to the level that they do is absurd.

Other problems include the fact that schools are funded according to total student attendance days. This turns the place into a glorified babysitting venture where the #1 priority is just to get butts into seats, and this is reflected strongly by most school policies.

Education is just about the lowest priority being addressed by all the interests involved with the production of public schools.

There are many, many more problems but those are just a few to chew on.
natedogg