HPFAP - How applicable is this concept at Small Stakes? [Archive]

View Full Version : HPFAP - How applicable is this concept at Small Stakes?

JoshuaD

01-05-2005, 02:29 AM

On Page 141 they outline why you would check a hand on the turn that you believe to be best (like TPTK), with the intention of check-raising.

An example they give:

You have A/images/graemlins/spade.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif the board is A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/club.gif. You have bet the flop, been called, and have every reason to believe you're ahead. A blank falls on the turn, they say you should check with the intention of raising a bet.

It's designed to make players weary of betting into your turn checks (with hands you had been betting until then, either legitimately or on a semi-bluff), resulting in you getting more free cards for you semi-bluffs. At the same time, you get more money in the pot with your good hands when you check raise with them.

I like the concept, because I hate the weakness I show when I check that missed AK on the turn, and I usually have to fold to a bet at that point (assume I don't have the pot odds to draw, or the board's too scary).

Is this applicable at the 2/4 level? How often do you use it?

Thanks.

bdk3clash

01-05-2005, 02:45 AM

Funny you should mention, I just had a hand where I did this and got 3 bets in 3-handed on the turn with an overpair. I do this shit all the time at small stakes games

They're not betting the turn because they "know" you have AK because you checked the turn, they're betting the turn because you checked. They're bad players, and they make lots of mistakes. They're too aggressive in inappropriate spots, and most of the time people that raise-preflop-and-bet-the-flop-and-then-check-the-turn-on-a-raggy-board do have AK/AQ/KQ.

Your opponents bet the turn because that's one of the mistakes they make--bet when they should check. (See the Sklansky essay The Eight Mistakes in Poker (http://www.twoplustwo.com/dsessay6.html).)

The bet will come from their own AK, a worse Ax, a pocket pair, any piece of the board, any draw, or a random bluff, or a better hand sometimes. You should definitely be incorporating this particular move into your game when playing against overly aggressive opponents out of position on the turn, because it's a great counter to their "strategy"--not just in terms of getting free river cards in the future (I doubt most pay enough attention online for that, though live it does have its merits), but also in terms of getting way more bets in on the turn with pretty good (but by no means monster) hands than you should be able to.

Keep in mind this is a gambit. Sometimes you end up giving a free card, which can cost you the pot. Sometimes they have a better hand and cost you extra bets compared to playing the hand in a more straightforward manner. But overall, this is a great move to introduce into your arsenal.

Example:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: bdk3clash is BB with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 4 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, bdk3clash raises, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
bdk3clash bets, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
bdk3clash checks, UTG+2 bets, Button raises, bdk3clash 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, Button calls.

River: (13.66 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
bdk3clash bets, UTG+2 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 15.66 BB

Monty Cantsin

01-05-2005, 02:49 AM

This move has profound implications when you are playing against opponents who are paying attention to you and against whom you will be playing a significant number of future hands.

This is sometimes the case online, but not as often as in the game environment described by HFPAPFAP. But maybe more often than you might think.

It can be very useful on a more mundane level against aggressive players who you can count on to bet. In this case you are using it for immediate profit, and less for its long-term metagame advantages.

Obviously, you don't want to use this against passive players who won't bet often enough and already give you plenty of free cards.

Conventional small-stakes online wisdom says just bet the turn, and that's probably right. But I think a lot of us could probably increase the amount of times we check the turn after raising pre-flop, and you want to follow that up with a raise sometimes instead of a fold. A little mixing it up goes a long way to making your game less exploitable and that's worth considering, even online.

/mc

private joker

01-05-2005, 03:56 AM

God I love this forum. I read this thread and no more than 15 minutes later I got the chance to use the concept, so I said what the hell. It was the sheer number of opponents I had that made me quite sure SOMEONE would bet this turn. I was hoping it was an EP person and it ended up being LP, but I still got 2BB from 2 opponents on the turn -- plus overcalls on the river. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

(By the way, my failure to not raise PF this time was not a misclick -- it was my weak-tightness that only raises big suited aces and PPs from the SB; I promise to raise KQs next time I get it in the SB)

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

bdk3clash

01-05-2005, 04:03 AM

I guess to be balanced I should post a hand where this didn't work (SFer saw me whiff live recently) but overall I suspect this play is pretty profitable when used in the correct spots.

W. Deranged

01-05-2005, 04:04 AM

Really good post.

When I first read the question, my instant reaction was that that play really found its most value only against good players in live games who are going to carefully track your turn betting tendencies.

But you convinced me of the value of the play, and I am going to start doing it a lot more often. (Off-topic... I bet this play would be sick against agressive no limit players...)

bernie

01-05-2005, 04:16 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this applicable at the 2/4 level?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not a question pertaining to the limit. It's a question pertaining to the texture of game your in regardless of the limit you're playing. Which is true with just about every question about hold em.

b

JoshuaD

01-05-2005, 12:10 PM

I guess I should post up my first attempt at this. .5 / 1 micro's, clearing that current empire bonus.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: (3.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ac Tc (one pair, aces).
MP1 has 2h 9h (two pair, nines and twos).
Outcome: MP1 wins 5.25 BB. 

Obviously this is a -EV play, since it cost me this hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

edit: Now that I think about it, this wasn't the best of times to go for that play anyway.

colgin

01-05-2005, 12:18 PM

In a live game I think this line has a lot of merit when used judiciously. In an online $2/4 game I would just continue to value bet my TPTK against a "typical" opponent. Against a known aggressive opponent then I think I like this line even in online play. When in doubt I would just bet the turn though.

me454555

01-05-2005, 12:20 PM

Its not very applicable @ small stakes b/c your opponents don't pay enough attention

me454555

01-05-2005, 12:23 PM

You woulda made more money by betting out I think.

smoore

01-05-2005, 12:24 PM

You can use this play in certain situations, I do it when my game selection hasn't been so great for the table in question and I have a couple tight or agressive players behind me. I don't think you should EVER do it if the fish are on your left, the chance of a free card is too high and as Miller says in SSH, a mistake that costs you a bet is just a bet but a mistake that costs you the pot is much worse.

mistrpug

01-05-2005, 12:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO (poster) checks, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

No preflop raise? Boo.

mistrpug

01-05-2005, 12:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (4.50 SB) 3, A, K (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
MP1 has 2h 9h (two pair, nines and twos).

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have to get fancy against this guy. Also, add him to your buddy list.

Trix

01-05-2005, 12:33 PM

I dont think it´s worth it against unknowns at 2/4. It´s nice against aggro players though.

Sadat X

01-05-2005, 02:55 PM

This is a great move even at low-limits as long as your opponent isn't a total fish. I use it regularly.

mistrpug

01-05-2005, 03:06 PM

The way Skalansky puts it in the book, no that's not applicable to low limit games. People will not notice your play and start "respecting" your turn checks.

However, taking the same line works for a difference reason. Checking the turn in this spot is not a proper play for the reason Skalansky gives but instead for the reason BDK gives. The players stink and will often bet because you checked.

So basically the concept is not applicable to low limit games, but coincidentally, the play is.

Bluffoon

01-05-2005, 03:19 PM

I think you are better off in the long run betting out unless you are having a problem with an aggressive player trying to run you over.

The majority of opponents at lower limits are passive and you are going to give dangerous free cards too often.

It is going to take an awful lot of check raises to make up for that occasional pot you lose because you gave a free card.

Monty Cantsin

01-05-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously this is a -EV play, since it cost me this hand. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No it didn't. If he calls that flop with no hand and no draw he's not likely to fold a pair.

/mc

TimM

01-05-2005, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It is going to take an awful lot of check raises to make up for that occasional pot you lose because you gave a free card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention the 1BB per hand you miss out on every time you don't get sucked out on.

I don't see much need for this play in the games I am in. When an ace flops they will just put me on KK and raise the turn.

I had a guy raise and then cap vs my JJ, and then bet and raise all the way after the flop. He showed down 66 and MHIG.

MRBAA

01-07-2005, 11:04 AM

the key to using this play is to do it selectively against (a) players you play with frequently who DO notice how you play and (b) against very aggressive players who will autobet frequently when lyou check. Note that bdk did it against not one but TWO hyperaggro opponents (and they both raised!). Against passive calling station types, it's better to just value bet.

Hawkeye27

01-07-2005, 12:48 PM

This hand is exactly where I like to use this play. When YOU'VE improved and feel really good about your hand. If a 10 or J came its very possible you are up against two pair and are putting in more money with the worst hand. Also TP/TK with raibow board against 2 or less opponents. These plays really hurt when you are unknowingly behind, but they have to be implemented into your turn play.

Also realize that they are going to call every time so be in a situation where you WANT them to call.

bcunha

01-07-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, Hero raises, MP1 calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls.

MP1 has 2h 9h (two pair, nines and twos).

[/ QUOTE ]

The best +EV play here is to follow this guy around until he busts.

sthief09

01-07-2005, 01:52 PM

this isn't in response to your main question, but you should usually fire a second barrel with AK. the only time I wouldn't is if the board is very coordinated (like T97x) or if there are 2 people with position on me. if only one person has position on me, and there are no more than 2 other people in the hand, I'll usually bet the turn for a free showdown.