qq from party poker level 1

[zaphod]

This hand is from a 30 dollar SNG on partypoker. This hand is from level 1.


***** Hand History for Game 1390569338 *****
15/30 TourneyTexasHTGameTable (NL) (Tournament 8408981) - Tue Jan 04 19:31:45 EST 2005
Table Table 11828 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: BBB123 (635)
Seat 2: ManiacalMo (755)
Seat 3: laikhe66 (945)
Seat 4: AmidaTong (785)
Seat 5: brnslide (725)
Seat 6: LilHomie1104 (965)
Seat 7: Hero (800)
Seat 8: jtlissiak (800)
Seat 9: plumber_ (790)
Seat 10: abbasdelagah (800)
AmidaTong posts small blind (10)
brnslide posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **

Dealt to Hero [ Qc, Qs ]
LilHomie1104 folds.
Hero raises (60) to 60
jtlissiak calls (60)
plumber_ folds.
abbasdelagah folds.
BBB123 folds.
ManiacalMo folds.
laikhe66 calls (60)
AmidaTong calls (50)
brnslide calls (45)

** Dealing Flop ** : [ Ts, 7d, 9d ]
AmidaTong checks.
brnslide checks.
Hero bets (225)
jtlissiak raises (740) to 740
jtlissiak is all-In.
laikhe66 folds.
AmidaTong calls (725)
AmidaTong is all-In.
brnslide folds.



I folded.

Any comments on my play?

[recoil]

For what its worth, you never know...especially only on level 1.

I had a friend, not an hour ago, that was in the SAME situation as you. He had QQ, it was level 1 (about 2-3 hands in), except it was a $10 table.

There were 3 limpers ahead of him, he raised $100 pre-flop, 2 guys called before it got to the magic-man here who re-raised all-in. The only difference was (and it was the reason he called him) that the guy who re-raised to all-in had tried to limp in with a $15 bet at first.

My friend called, and the guy who re-raised to all-in only had KJo. Really questionable play by that guy.

Anyway, its really tough to tell level 1 on PP. Id have called probably, and might have been riding the pine early.

[1C5]

I would have also folded but I am sure many would call. Tough decision. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[willperkins]

Tough decision. I don't really fault your fold, you still have t515 and blinds are very low.

However, trying to think this through, what would he have? If he hand AA,KK (the only two hands that dominate you) why wouldn't he reraise you? He is in early position and I would think he would want anyone behind him out of the pot so he could be heads up with you.

Would he call your early position raise with 77? I wouldn't think so because he is only 7 to 1 to flop a set and he is only getting 1.41 to 1 pot odds with 7 players still to act behind him.

Maybe AK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, JJ, TT or 99. The only hand you dominate is JJ because he has 15 outs if he has AK /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. If he has TT or 99 you are really in trouble.


With the absence of any information on what type of player this guys is, I would lean toward folding because I still have plenty of chips and the blinds are low.

[adanthar]

Stop minraising PF and you won't run into this problem (as much).

And, yes, since you let them both into the pot one of them has you beat often enough to fold here.

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop minraising PF and you won't run into this problem (as much).

And, yes, since you let them both into the pot one of them has you beat often enough to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheesh, how much would you have him open for? Given the size of the blinds t60 is a pretty sizeable raise. Thats about my normal raise on level 1. A raise much higher than that and he is likely to wind up winning just the t25 in blinds.

I think your preflop raise was good, and the flop was good for your hand. Personally I think I would have called and hoped for the best. Yes a set or two pair is possible, but I think one of them likely had TPTK or something similar, and the other guy could have had a flush draw. I have seen many horrible plays in the early rounds of these.

[Spladle Master]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Stop minraising PF and you won't run into this problem (as much).

And, yes, since you let them both into the pot one of them has you beat often enough to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sheesh, how much would you have him open for? Given the size of the blinds t60 is a pretty sizeable raise. Thats about my normal raise on level 1. A raise much higher than that and he is likely to wind up winning just the t25 in blinds.

I think your preflop raise was good, and the flop was good for your hand. Personally I think I would have called and hoped for the best. Yes a set or two pair is possible, but I think one of them likely had TPTK or something similar, and the other guy could have had a flush draw. I have seen many horrible plays in the early rounds of these.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pre-flop raise is good for his opponents. It allows them to profitably call with small pairs and suited connectors (assuming they play well post-flop).

I've seen some horrible plays in the early rounds of these, too. Like mini-raising with queens. Or calling 5xBB raises with A2o, which I'm very much okay with.

Limping is acceptable if he expects the pot to get raised behind him, but mini-raising is simply awful.

[KJ o]

Except that he wasn't min-raising. His raise was 4BB. My standard raise is 5BB on level 1, 4BB on level 2 and 3BB later until the point where minraising has the same effect (which depends on the particular opponents in the tournament).

Either way, 4BB isn't minraising in my book.

[Absolution]

Me neither. I had a guy yesterday who would only minraise when he opened. I cracked his aces with a pair of eights because of it, but he got me back later when I came over the top of him when I was shortstacked. I don't understand the open minraise with a top 5 hand, but it worked out for him that SnG. I see that a lot though. Sometimes they will even limp. The moral of this story is that it's nearly impossible to put low stakes SnG players on a hand. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Sheesh, how much would you have him open for?

[/ QUOTE ]

100 or 125.

His 4xBB bet seems reasonable, but it's only 8% of his stack in this case. Given the implied odds, that's a call for anyone with a pocket pair. Plenty of other hands will call that bet too and hope to break you.

Occassionally, a bigger bet will win only the blinds. However, I'd rather have that than play out of position with QQ against 4 or 5 players. Most the the time 1 or 2 players will call the bigget bet, and that's even better.

[stripsqueez]

i would of made a serious raise pre-flop

i auto fold after this flop action

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[zaphod]

Thank you all for your usefull comments.

I have a few more questions:

-What is you standard raise at level 1:
Is 4xBB or 5x BB better ? I guess the answer migth be diffrent at the 50 dollar level where you start with 1000 chips?
[ QUOTE ]

The pre-flop raise is good for his opponents. It allows them to profitably call with small pairs and suited connectors (assuming they play well post-flop).

[/ QUOTE ]


Is calling a 4xbb cal ok with suited connectors and small pairs? My thinking has been that this is only waisting chips at the early levels(but maybee then it is my postflop play that is not good enough..)
This was also the hands that i was afraid of after the flop:
tt,99,77 and T9 suited.
I thougth that somebody with kings or aces world probably have raised preflop, so i really did not fear those hands.

As for what my opponents had:

The guy who went in had KJ off(same thing as for your friende recoil..)!!, and the guy calling the all in had pocket 7.

[Sam T.]

I agree with the folks that at this point in the tournament you need to put in a bigger raise PF. In rounds 1 and two, I think less about multiples of BB than percentage of stacks because that's how the other players think. (I also play UB MT tournaments that have 1500 starting stacks, and blinds at 5-10. If you think you're goint to get anyone out with a t30 bet, think again.) In this situation, if I'm first in, I'd go 75-80.

Good fold on the flop. One all-in you can think for a moment if he might be on a draw. Two, it's muck-a-luck-luck.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Is calling a 4xbb bet ok with suited connectors and small pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

As stated earlier, it's more about the % of your stack and % of your opponent's stack. If I start with 1000 and blinds are 10/15 and someone raises to 75, I'm going to call with most pocket pairs (if there are few people behind that might re-raise).

I've heard people say that they'll call up to 10% of their stack for a chance to flop a set and break someone. I don't if this is a standard guideline or not.

Connectors are much trickier since you usually only flop a draw at best. Now you'll have to call a bet on the flop or go for a semibluff. Either way, you will putting in more chips before completing your hand, so your effective odds are worse pre-flop. Hence, I wouldn't call more than 5% of my stack pre-flop with a suited connector, if I called at all.

[therock]

I don't like your post flop play at all. You bet 30% of your stack and fold to a raise/push. The raise/push was somewhat predictable considering the flop and number of players who saw it. If I'm betting 30% of my stack, I'm pot committed. I probably would have pushed the flop and took my chances, hoping to knock out anyone on a draw.

[floppy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Is calling a 4xbb bet ok with suited connectors and small pairs?

[/ QUOTE ]

As stated earlier, it's more about the % of your stack and % of your opponent's stack. If I start with 1000 and blinds are 10/15 and someone raises to 75, I'm going to call with most pocket pairs (if there are few people behind that might re-raise).

I've heard people say that they'll call up to 10% of their stack for a chance to flop a set and break someone. I don't if this is a standard guideline or not.

Connectors are much trickier since you usually only flop a draw at best. Now you'll have to call a bet on the flop or go for a semibluff. Either way, you will putting in more chips before completing your hand, so your effective odds are worse pre-flop. Hence, I wouldn't call more than 5% of my stack pre-flop with a suited connector, if I called at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

This 10%/5% rule sounds pretty reasonable. With that in mind, wouldn't you want to raise, say 12% of other people's stacks? But if you do that, don't you run into the problem of more all-in reraises as steal attempts?

BTW, noone seems to have noticed that zaphod didn't make a 4xBB bet, he made a 4xSB = 2xBB bet. I normally make a 3xBB bet (as I think most here do), which would have been 90 in this case, and just about 10% of the largest stacks.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
This 10%/5% rule sounds pretty reasonable. With that in mind, wouldn't you want to raise, say 12% of other people's stacks?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly why I recommended that he raise to 100-125 with QQ in an earlier post.

[ QUOTE ]
But if you do that, don't you run into the problem of more all-in reraises as steal attempts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only going to do this with AA, KK, AK, or QQ. Therefore, I'm usually thrilled by reraises as steal attempts. Unfortunately, I don't see this often. When you raise this much on level 1, even the maniacs know not to bluff you (of course, this doesn't stop them from calling).


[ QUOTE ]
zaphod didn't make a 4xBB bet, he made a 4xSB = 2xBB bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Read the history again. Party's stupid hand history shows "15/30" as if this were a limit game. Look at where the blinds are posted and you will see that the BB was 15.

[bigredlemon]

[ QUOTE ]
Stop minraising PF and you won't run into this problem (as much).

And, yes, since you let them both into the pot one of them has you beat often enough to fold here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I say it will. In the last few times I re-raised 3xBB with QQ or KK, some guy called and re-raised all in on the flop. I called a few of the times. Once he turned over 8 4 for a straight!??? Once the guy hit trips with a 5 K kicker. Another time he had two low pairs.

It's tough because if an A pops it'll be hard to keep betting. If it doesn't pop, and everyone folds, you win a decent sized pot but nothing fantastic. If you get reraised all in, you in a tough spot and might be drawing dead. It makes me wonder whether rag-rag has better EV than a premium hand only because of the implied odds.

[zaphod]

Thanks again everybody for your comments.

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:



This is exactly why I recommended that he raise to 100-125 with QQ in an earlier post.

[/ QUOTE ]


Is the 5-10% rule also used for tournaments? I thought this was mainly used in NL moneygame.

Another point: If you raise to 100-125 chips on level 1, how often will you get action from people that you want action from(ie not aces or kings)? I was very suprised that i got all that action when i raised to 60 chips. My estimate would be on average 1 caller, possibly two if the table is loose when i raise to 60..

I agree that my raise was to small, and i will now raise 75 chips(which is still 9% of my starting stack). I think raising to 100 or more will leave me too often with only the blinds. Comments?

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Is the 5-10% rule also used for tournaments? I thought this was mainly used in NL moneygame.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I should say that the "5-10%" is how I play. I dont' know if this an official rule or not. If the side game stacks aren't too deep, I use it in both side games and the early levels of tournaments.

[ QUOTE ]
Another point: If you raise to 100-125 chips on level 1, how often will you get action from people that you want action from(ie not aces or kings)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very often, even at 30/3. Do you really think people are going to fold AQ, AJ, JJ, TT? Not at the tables I play at. Throw in 1 moron who calls with 76o and this is usually a good play. Try 100 and see what happens. I'd go as low as 90 if I'm in LP and its folded to me, but no lower than that.

If re-raised, you may well be up against AA or KK. However, because you bet 100+ and someone raised, you may be able to get away from your QQ. If you had bet 60, you will probably be stuck.

[zaphod]

[ QUOTE ]
Very often, even at 30/3. Do you really think people are going to fold AQ, AJ, JJ, TT? Not at the tables I play at. Throw in 1 moron who calls with 76o and this is usually a good play. Try 100 and see what happens. I'd go as low as 90 if I'm in LP and its folded to me, but no lower than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I give it a try and see how it works.

[floppy]

Phil,

You say:

[ QUOTE ]

If re-raised, you may well be up against AA or KK. However, because you bet 100+ and someone raised, you may be able to get away from your QQ. If you had bet 60, you will probably be stuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

But earlier, you said:

[ QUOTE ]
I'm only going to do this with AA, KK, AK, or QQ. Therefore, I'm usually thrilled by reraises as steal attempts. Unfortunately, I don't see this often. When you raise this much on level 1, even the maniacs know not to bluff you (of course, this doesn't stop them from calling).


[/ QUOTE ]

So it looks like, with AK or QQ, although you no longer have to worry about reading the flop, you now have to worry about taking the very worst of it on the all-in.

This is fine with me, since you have to use judgement somewhere during poker, and this seems to simplify the decisions you'll need to make. Are there ways to figure out that you *should* be thrilled with the reraise against you when you're holding AK or QQ, and not worry about being against AA or KK?

[Phil Van Sexton]

Fair question. I meant that I'd be thrilled if someone tried to steal since I'm almost always going to call, and I'd be a big favorite against a steal. I wouldn't be thrilled if they raised my QQ with AA, but that's not a steal attempt.

As for being able to tell the difference between a steal and a monster, I wish I knew. Harrington's book gives some suggestions. For example, if you raise from UTG, and UTG makes a huge re-raise, you can be pretty sure he isn't bluffing. He's less likely to bluff with 8 players left to act behind him. Also, if you raise UTG, 1 player calls and then a MP player re-raises, he is showing real strength and you need to be concerned.

However, if your raise was small, he could be re-raising with JJ-TT-AQ in addition to AK, KK or AA. I don't want to be raised by these hands since I'll be playing the rest of the hand in fear. I want to be called by them so I can keep the lead on the flop.

Remember this is level 1 or 2, so your opponents have no read on you either. If they knew you were a tight player, they'd certainly fold when you raise to 100 on the 3rd hand. In reality, even decent players may read you as a maniac/loser and call with hands that they shouldn't. Take advantage of this before you get a rock-like image.

[Phil Van Sexton]

My first QQ level 1 hand since this thread started. Not exactly the same scenario since I was facing a small raise, but the point is the same: morons will play anything on level 1.

This the very first hand of a 30/3 SnG...
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t800)
Hero (t800)
SB (t800)
BB (t800)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t800)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t800)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises to t55</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t125</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t195</font>, MP2 calls t140, Hero calls t70.

Flop: (t610) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t605 (All-In)</font>, UTG+1 calls t605 (All-In), MP2 folds.

Turn: (t1820) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1820) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1820

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+1 has As Js (one pair, tens).
Hero has Qs Qh (two pair, queens and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins t1820. </font>